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Author Topic: Problems with heating system and shower trays  (Read 19407 times)

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needster

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Problems with heating system and shower trays
« on: January 29, 2015, 12:21:05 pm »
We moved into our new build in April 2014, within 1 week of moving in we reported a number of defects, two of which are persistent and which our builder (Bett Homes Limited) claim they have fully investigated and are "closing the matter, and taking no further action".
Our house type is: Bett Homes "Kingsbury"

The two faults we're mostly annoyed about are:-

Heating: The radiators they've installed are tiny! The system was designed by Myson, and installed by a local contractor. The zoned heating thermostat is located in the master bedroom; located above the kitchen, south east facing - a naturally warm room.

We used the heating once or twice when we first moved in and had a brief cold snap and it was then we noticed the problems. The two bedrooms above the garage are freezing (on the drawing these are bed 3 and 4) - to be expected, they're above the garage, but the radiators are small and according to the builder double convectors were installed to make up for the garage beneath (but the rooms are still barely over 18 degrees when the heating is on full blast).

The bigger surprise is bed 2; located above the living room. The radiator in here is tiny (in fact, it is the same size as that which is located in our downstairs WC). This room has a large, double height window. It is west facing, but in winter, shadowed by trees. There is a noticeable temperate change in this room as soon as you walk over the threshold. We've used a digital thermometer to measure the temperature of the rooms regularly. We're usually home by 5pm (sometimes earlier), I immediately raise the temperature of the thermostats (usually both downstairs and upstairs to between 20-21 degrees. Frequently the results, after the heating having been on/off continuously for 5 hours, are:

Before heating (set to 19 degrees):
Master: 19 degrees
Bed 2: 17.1 degrees
Bed 3 17.6 degrees
Bed 4: 17.3 degrees

After heating (set to 21 degrees):
Master: 21.1 degrees
Bed 2: 18.2 degrees
Bed 3: 19.4 degrees
Bed 4: 19.9 degrees

Each of these temperatures was measured with the same digital thermometer, and this was left in each of the rooms for 10 minutes to acclimatise.

For us, bed 2 represents a real problem - it's very cold (so much so my parents in law, who live in a home with storage heaters, commented how cold it was on their stay with us over Christmas). Bett Homes' Customer Liaison Manager claimed bed 2, should be much warmer due to being over a heated living space - to which I agree. The small radiator gets extremely hot but the size of it is clearly not enough to warm the room properly.

The installed radiator is as per the manufacturers drawings; this has been checked by site. They also got Myson to visit our home to check (he also carried out some balancing work), and further checked that the double height window was factored into their calculations - all of which, apparently, came back as correct.

For it to be so cold, there must be an issue - especially as it is colder than two rooms above an unheated garage. Putting the thermostat (which we've recently had to do with the cold weather) on upwards of 22-23 degrees makes the master bedroom unbearably hot: Bett's solution to this was to open the window and turn the heating up to get the other rooms warm (and I'll throw £5 notes out of there whilst I do so!).

I feel only something like thermal imaging would identify the issue here; which I'm not prepared nor feel I should have to pay for in a 9 month old house.

The second problem we have is the master ensuite. The shower tray is a low profile (about 5mm depth to catch the water) and the shower head is a 'hotel style' rainfall one with a very high output flow. If you turn the shower on more than 10-15% of its actual capacity the tray immediately overflows. The site manager showed us on the demo how to clean the trap (which is done every two days to prevent any hair/soap scum build up) so we've done this regularly. Bett's plumber visited on one occasion armed with a plunger and immediately said he knew the fault was not going to be cleanliness of the plug/trap - naturally his plunging efforts were unrewarded and he informed us he'd spoken to his boss about the real problem! The depth of the tray. Bett say it was installed to their designs , I don't doubt that - our argument is what they've specified is not fit for purpose which is evident as I'm unable to use the shower to wash hair, etc. as it immediately overflows.

They're refusing to deal with the problems and are now stating that I should contact Premier Guarantee at a cost of £100 per defect raised. I feel as though I fighting a losing battle; Bett Homes would never admit they're at fault, and why would Premier also do the same when Bett Homes are paying for the policy - why bite the hand that feeds you, eh!? We are deeply frustrated at these ongoing issues, we accept that the house has been built to the designs - that is not the argument, clear logic suggests that what has been designed is not sufficient in real life to ensure a comfortable temperature is maintained efficiently or that showers can cope with the flow of water. Meeting 'drawings' and 'building regulations' is a get out of jail card for Bett Homes, when common-sense clearly shows there is a fault. I've even offered for someone to stay in our house and experience the issues first hand.

I cannot begin to explain how angry we feel, especially having paid over £280,000 for something that we feel so disappointed with and regret purchasing more and more. I have spoken with neighbours with integral garages, they too feel that they are cold and draughty, and a number of them are also having the issue with the ensuite shower tray regardless of house type on the development. The Customer Liaison Manager has confirmed to others that "a lot of people are having problems with the trays" but she refuses to acknowledge a fault with ours.

We've spent upwards of £300 trying to better insulate the garage, and the rooms above the garage (higher tog underlay which we'll be installing shortly, etc), but do not know what we can do regarding the shower tray and colder bed 2.

The process has been terrible trying to get Bett to fix anything - very, very long wait times unless you can do whenever they suggest. The stress we've had and continue to have through trying to resolve these issues is really beginning to get the family down. We had a very stressful buying process with them, as well as build delays, and now we're still fighting to get things corrected.

I genuinely don't know where we can go from here. Can anyone provide any advice?


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Re: Problems with heating system and shower trays
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 02:49:45 pm »
You have bought a Bett new home part of the Avant Group.  I would suggest you write a stern letter to the Avant CEO telling him that you are totally disgusted with the brush off you are getting with Bett Homes staff.

As you have found out, you also have a Premier Guarantee, who knows what standards they set to build to.
The NHBC warranty standards 8.1  D15 state that when the external temperature is minus 1 degree C the heating system should be designed to be capable of heating the rooms to the following temperatures:

"(b) minimum standards for whole home heating
The provision of central, or whole home, heating is discretionary. Where it is provided, it should be designed to a recognised standard such as BS 5449 "Code of Practice for central heating for domestic premises" and based generally on the following as a minimum:    external temperature -1°C  the design temperatures and ventilation rates given in the table below:

Room Design temperature (°C)
Living room  21
Dining room  21
Bedsitting room  21
Bedroom  18
Hall and Landing 18 
Kitchen 18
Bathroom 22
Toilet 18

Your radiators, however small they may appear, should be capable of heating the rooms to these temperatures.
You should also note that the room thermostats will turn of the heating when the temperature at the thermostat reaches the temperature you have chosen setting. This does not mean every room will be heated to that temperature as it could shut off before they do.

It is clear to me that you have no insulation in the garage ceiling (the floor to your bedrooms. Am I correct in thinking these are in the garage roof space?  If so I also doubt you have adequate if any insulation between the roof rafters either.

Your best option is to say in your letter to Avant that you will have a thermal imaging survey carried out (at night when it is very cold outside and with your heating is on full blast) This will show with photographs where the insulation is clearly missing.  If this is the case, you expect Avant to pay for the survey.

Finally a 5mm deep shower tray is always going to overflow and leak!  What idiot designed that?
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needster

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Re: Problems with heating system and shower trays
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 03:47:35 pm »
Thanks for the reply. If the trickle vents were open in the bedrooms they wouldn't even be getting to what they are now.

The rooms above the garage are another storey not built into its roof space, they drilled into the garage ceiling at one point and pulled out the insulation to show me it was there. To what depth, and quality of how it was laid, I have no idea, but as far as they're concerned they've proven something is there.

The shower tray - precisely! They seem to concerned with saving themselves from admitted the failure and replacing everyone's shower tray!

I've been in touch with their MD at Bett Homes Limited previously: he too either doesn't care, or kicks his staff up the a*** and they respond to you, even then it's not what you want to hear as a customer.

Bed 2, above the living room is a mystery. It just seems to me it cannot get the room to a temperature that is comfortable. As said, if we had the trickle vents open, no blinds, thermal curtains etc I suspect it'd be even worse.

I'm loathed to pay upwards of £350-500 when the house should be thermally efficient; the house itself wasn't actually air tightness tested, just a range from the development were and achieved "good levels" so I'm told.

I'll try another email to the MD and see if I get any joy, if not, I'll try the MD of the entire group.

Thanks!

needster

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Re: Problems with heating system and shower trays
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 03:53:33 pm »
Funny you mention build standards, we have none of that information from Premier or Bett, but they often refer to NHBC guidelines when directing us to information on mould growth etc.

I'd be interested to find out what their guideline are, I'll do some Googling!

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Re: Problems with heating system and shower trays
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 08:04:50 am »
If trickle vents were supposed to be left open they would not be able to be closed!  Why do you think there is an air-tightness regulation when they introduce a bloody great gap above every window?  Madness I know!

The air-tightness test must be done on every property or the other properties built to Robust Details and signed off as having been so. 

Quite why Bett refer to NHBC Standards when they clearly do not apply is strange to say the least. Perhaps they don't know what standards they should be building to?  Around 80% of new homes are built to NHBC standards and sold with an NHBC warranty.  Perhaps you should be asking why your home is not one of them?

You can download the Technical manual here:  http://www.premierguarantee.co.uk/downloads/

I am not sure why you were told it costs you £100 for each and every item you claim on using Premier Guarantee.
A quick look at the forms I could see not payment requirement. But I expect there will be a minimum claim value, which as with the NHBC will be quite high!

Why are you wasting your time with Bett Homes MD? 
As I said, write to the CEO of Avant and tell him he must act within 28 days to resolve your issues once and for all. An air tightness test and thermal imaging is going to be the only way to prove whether your home has been properly constructed.
Copy your letter to Premier Guarantee.

The shower tray can be demonstrated as "not fit for purpose" and should be changed!
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needster

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Re: Problems with heating system and shower trays
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 01:47:32 pm »
Wrote to the MD again, copying in the CEO of Avant Homes Group.

They've offered to, at their cost, change the static thermostat in the master, for a wireless alternative which we can move around as we choose on the upper floor, and add a TRV to the master radiator.

The shower tray! Refused to acknowledge an issue, their plumber had been with a plunger a few times over the summer (the last time being October) and managed to get nothing from the drain. The customer care guy had resealed the shower over the summer as the silicone wore away/split from the tray... We bought a plunger last weekend, husband gave it a try... After 5 minutes, up came an eruption of silicone and what appeared to be tile grout, etc. which had started to turn black (having been sat in the drain pipe for goodness knows how long). DISGUSTING. Funnily enough, the shower now drains much better, and we haven't had a 'overflow' incident since. We'd tried a range of drain cleaners to no avail, and we were told by plumbers who visited that nothing came up - so this discovery was a complete surprise to us.

There's a few more outstanding issues, which they're going to resolve in the coming months as the 'movement' of the house lessens... Hopefully an end to the debacle, but I'd recommend anyone to tread with caution where they are concerned!

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Re: Problems with heating system and shower trays
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2015, 09:57:54 am »
Avant managed just three stars in the 2015 HBF Customer Satisfaction Star Rating survey results.
They have now lost a star in each of the last two surveys.
Going by your experience it is not difficult to see why!

Silicone and tile grout would explain why your shower overflowed, but not why the builder couldn't fix it for you.
It just shows how little Avant care they take during the build and how much they don't care about their customers afterwards!

I would go further than you by advising everyone to avoid Avant like the plague until they improve both their customer service and, more importantly, the quality of the homes they build!
New Home Blog - New Home Expert is committed to providing help and advice for people having issues with their new homes and difficulties with house builders as well as helping potential buyers reduce the risk of possible problems if they do buy.