New Home Owners And Snagging Forum
Advice on buying a brand new home => Snagging and defects => Topic started by: michaelmge on December 12, 2017, 02:32:07 pm
-
Hi
This is my first ever post online for any reason and I am hoping somebody may have experience or knowledge of my concerns.
I have now been in my house for 18 months and noticed the mortar falling out where the flashing has been put into the brickwork. This is very unsightly but led me to look at the rest of the mortar.
I have found areas where the perps can be rubbed with the finger and the mortar is rubbing out. I realise that this may happen to start with but it is continuing and I have not got access to all the wall.
I am concerned that there may be more areas like this. The house is south west facing in a severe wind driven rain area. Could this lead to erosion of the effected mortar joints over a period of time or am I worrying about nothing.
The developer sent out their snagging brickworker who concluded that everything looks alright and as all the mortar came from the same silo there is not an issue. He did not test the soft areas himself and did not use a ladder but did finger test mortar that was not an issue.
Any enlightment would be greatly appreciated.
-
First of all it is quite common that the mortar pointing to a flashing can fall out over time and this is part of house maintenance.
Likewise some weather erosion on exposed elevations, but this is only after15 to 18 years not 18 months!
Soft mortar or to use the correct term weak-mix mortar is a growing problem across all housebuilders (who is yours?) and yet the main warranty provider the NHBC is doing nothing to address it. The primary cause is cement replacement additive being used. Materials such as GGBS for example. Eve the NHBC';s own "expert" concludes this is the probable reason for the growing incidence of failing mortar in new homes over the last 8 year or so.
The issue is so bad and has serious structural implications for owners that today I set up a 'Campaign Against Weak Mix Mortar' (https://www.facebook.com/groups/weakmortar/)Facebook Group to raise awareness of the issue and so people like you can share their experiences.
I am afraid you are at the start of a long journey. You have already experienced the denial and reassurance.
Write to your housebuilder and insist the mortar is tested at an independent laboratory!
When it has insufficient cement (it should be 1 cement to 5.5 sand) make a warranty claim.
You are not alone. Check out Twitter for "#weakmortar" or #weakmixmortar
-
Thank you for your response, it is much appreciated.
The developer is Bloor Homes.
At 15.00 hours yesterday I messaged the customer service manager, customer service department and the regional director with my thoughts. As of this moment, there has been no acknowledgement from any of them.
Their response at times is extremely slow (I raised this as an issue in August) almost as if they hope you will just give up. Today they are carrying out remedial work to the dpc levels that I had to go through the warranty to achieve anything.
I will update you as things proceed. Again many thanks for your help.
-
I find through this forum and helping people that Bloor homes are pretty useless when it comes to sorting out defects after the site staff have left the site. Their deficiencies in customer care are at their offices and these staff really need to go on a course or two - unless it is Bloor company policy to be have like this to their unfortunate customers!
Not replying to e mails or returning telephone calls is a basic requirement. They are mots certainly breaching requirement 5.1 of the Consumer Code for Home Builders. You wont get much by way of compensation by claiming for this (£250 seems to be the going rate) but it shows the contempt Bloor have even for rules of their own Code which they signed up to abide by!
I look forward to your update and hope you get justice.
-
Just an update on my situation.on January 10th an independent company came to look at the mortar and concluded that the mortar needed to be analysed.
It would appear that Bloor let slip to the LABC warranty that there was an outstanding mortar issue as LABC phoned me and said they would chase them and can I now copy all communications to them.
On Tuesday 23rd January I was contacted to allow CPI Euromix to come and take samples. I was told that they would use an independent agency to test the mortar. Today the 25th of January they turned up with a member of the Bloor site team. He was only there to have a look and not to test.
He was unable to give me any information about the mortar, despite Bloor telling me he would know, as I had requested this on 20th December. Despite what Bloor told me CPI use their own laboratory. So today is another low in my saga. This is now over 5 months old and as I have said in an email to them that they do not even achieve their own customer service standard. More to follow
-
All pre mixed dry mortar suppliers do their own testing. This in itself makes the results highly suspect.
You can and should get your own independent testing done.
Try QED 01923 682682 www.qedtesting.co.uk
On a positive note CPI tell me they don't use cement replacement additives sucg=h as GGBS which I believe is the cause of weak mortar.
Stuart from CPI told me:
"We do not use GGBS in our mortars, they are a blend of sand, cement and chemical admixtures to aid workability, air entrainment and water retention.
Colour pigments are also added when the client is looking for a coloured mortar."
-
Further update.
Expecting CPI Tuesday 13 February 2018 to take sample.
On Monday 12/2/18 this was cancelled due to them not believing they can resolve my issues and my unreasonableness at previous meeting, whatever that means.
Bloor Homes have told me to do my own sampling despite them saying they would carry out the findings of the independent company, who told them the mortar needed to be analysed.
I asked for the mortar classification on Friday and they sent me the comformity certificate by email. Monday morning I asked Bloor to ask CPI if the certificate covered 2015/2016 when the house was built, as the certificate they sent on Friday was dated 9/2/18.
The response I got this afternoon was we are not coming.
I know the mortar is Class 3/M4 and have asked warranty to comment on what mortar they would have expected to be used in my area.
Anyway regardless, I still have weak mortar as witnessed by their site member.
Emails have gone back to there customer service, Bloor's head office and Graftons (CPI) CEO.
-
Bloor Homes customer care will not admit anything or advise you of anything. They are their first line of defence to wear you down. Once you realise you're not getting anywhere, escalate the complaint, get LABC involved and write to your MP.
I'm having lots of problems with them. I'll be updating my own thread with a list of problems and faults I've had plus pictures and videos.
Also, their sales staff are lying bar stewards.
-
Thanks for that Bri.
I have tried involving local councillor,LABC and MP but they have all washed their hands and are not getting involved.
What frustrates me is the LABC(Local Authority Building Control) who are the only people with the powers to control breaches of building regulations and all they say is that as soon as they sign the completion certificate they no longer have the powers to hold developers to account.
I have already escalated to warranty but I am persistent and am in for the long haul.
-
Just so you know, LABC has nothing whatsoever to do with a local authority approving plans and inspecting works for building regulation compliance.
They are a new home warranty provider that can and do carry out building regulation inspections, but not on behalf of the local council.
MD Insurance Services are scheme administrators for both LABC and Premier Guarantee warrantees, are also the Secretariat for the Consumer Code for Home Builders. MD Insurance Services employ 'Risk Management Surveyors' "work within both brands of the company"
For the record in my opinion, LABC and Premier Guarantee are not as good for homebuyers as NHBC warranty, as you are finding out.
That is not to say the NHBC are good though!
-
Hi Michael
Did you have any luck with LABC warranty?
They came out to inspect my faults, I received the report back confirming they need repairing and now awaiting Bloor homes to contact me.
I reported I heard a tile slip off my roof over 3 months ago, still no one been out, Bloor were suppose to clean the marks off my render left by scaffolding over 4 months ago, still waiting. Had floorboards repaired for speaking, they are squeaking more now, still waiting for painter to come back from 6 weeks ago.
-
A few of my issues, water not draining from roof, staining from parapit everytime it rains and decking and paving higher than DPC causing damp and green staining to climb up the render.
-
Hi Bri
Your problems are the same as on this estate, unless of course we are on the same estate in Somerset. Sandberg came on Thursday and took samples, so hope to hear just after Easter. I would expect them to report a class iii m4 mortar but my complaint to warranty is that being in Somerset the classification should be ii. M6 as stated in their technical manual.
So I am pressing them for an answer now as Bloor have supplied them with the data on silo mixes etc for when my house was built. They have now told me they are going to wait for the results by Sandberg but really they are irrelevant as if they have used the wrong mix that would explain why I have the problem. Of course the other problem for warranty would be that the comformity certificate I was emailed was for the estate not just my property.
-
The dry mix mortars used in Silos are tested regularly (or so the manufacturer's claim) so it should be possible to see the test results for the mix for the week that the silo was filled on site that was used to build your house superstructure.
Obviously the manufacturer isn't going to give your results that prove their mortar was weak, and the housebuilder may not want to or even know exactly which 2 week period your home brickwork was built either. Site testing, taking mortar away from your actual home and checking the cement content would prove it has insufficient cement, but not crucially (and they will use this excuse) that is it not under strength.
-
I should have known that was coming.
Mortar tested and shown to be designation iv/v. Ah but wait, this is a designed mortar done on compressive strength so is actually M4 designation iii.
Long lengthy report after they went back to the testing laboratory and CPI. Looks like parts are from a website. Now I have been told that there is no issue with the mortar despite being told by an independent that there was an issue and the assistant site manager witnessing the problems.
Now will LABC back me as their technical manual states that in severe wind driven rain areas that mortar should be M6 designation ii as does all sites I have checked. When CPI came at the end of January a comment was made that it was probably 1:5:6 mix but probably realised that would be wrong for the zone and went on to say that cannot be sure how the mortar was handled on site and of course if Bloor have ordered the wrong mix.
So I have a lot of questions going back to Bloor. As yet I have not asked the neighbours but I think the time is coming to put this on the estates Facebook page.
-
What you have said, I've seen all this before.
Builder blames mortar company. Mortar company says design mix and our test results prove it is OK.
Then blame builder for site based issues - freezing etc).
Warranty company gets involved and suggests 25mm repointing with stronger (higher cement content) mortar.
Soft weak mortar is far too common, across most mortar suppliers and housebuilders to be ignored.
Even if you do get it sorted you will be required to sign a non-disclosure agreement "gagging order" so your neighbours never check their mortar as it is certain to be a site-wide issue!
-
Update.
Today I have had an email from LABC warranty resolution saying having weighed all of the evidence and especially the report from the testing agency that they have found there is no defect against their technical manual and that no visit to the site is warranted.
My argument has always been against the designation of mortar used not whether the mortar is what they have said they used. They have always said they used an M4 designated iii mortar and have proved that. On the 6 March they were asked by warranty if they had used a designation ii mortar as per their technical manual but then refused to give a ruling until the testing was carried out. So in their email there is no mention of weather zone or mortar requirement.
At a meeting last week Bloor said that my property would have been worked out with an individual exposure assessment so are confident of their calculations. There is no mention of this that I can find in the T.M. But surely this could then lead to different exposures on the same site. They have also used f2 s2 bricks which would be used in areas at risk from high saturation. So I battle on.
Up to now I have not involved anybody else on the estate in alerting them to a potential problem,as I would not wish to cause undue alarm if I am wrong. Two other things that came from the meeting was they would repoint the problem areas using an M6 mortar. Why would they if their figures are right!
And they seemed extremely pleased in telling me in justification that they are using an M6 mortar in Brixham instead of M12. Any advice would be welcome concerning mortar designation use in severe wind driven rain areas and the calculation of the zones.
-
You might find my article on weak mortar and various mixes (http://www.new-home-blog.co.uk/weak-mortar-new-homes-scandal/)of interest.
I think a repoint using M6 (severe) is to ensure that the problem goes away. It costs very little more to use M6 than M4. The significant cost is in the labour aspect.
It is ridiculous to claim that each home on a development is assessed individually for exposure! Just think how many different mortar mixes they would need and how much work would be involved to ensure the right mix was used to build each home.
From the NHBC exposure map here (http://blog.ccfltd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Exposure-Map.png) it can be seen that Brixham is in a 'Very Severe' category. In my opinion designation (ii) or M6 mortar should have been used anyway, perhaps even (i) M12 mortar!
Please tell your neighbours as some of these may not find out about the issue until the warranty expires!
I would have more respect for Bloor Homes (and other housebuilders) if they just came clean and dealt with it (like BMW have this week) rather than try and avoid doing anything at all.
-
I could not agree with your last paragraph more. I served them with a Subject Access Request in March. They missed the 40 day requirement and I had to write to them again. It finally took 52 days! I had a 12-month battle with them over dpc level only to find out from an email in the SAR that they knew in December 2016 that the levels were wrong.
They still made me fight for a year to get the dpc improved. Now they are refusing to answer questions arising from the SAR. LABC have not even bothered to acknowledge the emails I sent them yesterday, which, when you consider their verdict and the effect it could have on me, I think is poor customer service to a policyholder.
I am sure they were banking on the chemical testing to prove that there was no problem and totally forgot what I had raised a complaint about. The person trying to get me to believe about exposures was an extremely senior person! That person is also aware that the issue I have, is showing on my neighbour's garage that backs onto my garden.
It is a shame that their customer service is based around adversity and confrontation rather than conciliation, even more so as the overall product is very good.
Thank you for your support. I look forward to keeping you updated.
One other thing about SAR you will get a load of rubbish but it will provide information you can use. Rules change soon, I believe 25th May, response to a request is 30 days (instead of 40) and I believe it will be free.
-
You should report Bloor to the Information Commissioner's Office [ICO} as they have broken the law in not complying with the requirements of the Data Protection Act as it currently is.
You are quite correct, from 25th May 2018, it will be completely free for new homebuyers to make a SAR to a housebuilder or warranty provider and they will indeed, have just 30 days to comply.
I have been instrumental (I would hope) in making new homebuyers aware of and encouraging them to make a Subject Access Request. (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/making-a-subject-access-request.htm)Most buyers will receive lots of useful, enlightening information (ammunition) which they can use against housebuilders to pursue legal action if required. New Homebuyers should be aware there is a ever growing incidence of housebuilders redacting huge swaths of information on what they send to buyers. (probably to hide damning and incriminating evidence].
Some of this may be permissible under commercial sensitivity rules of the DPA but given the new 30 day deadline, they will have less time to do this after 25 May 2018!
-
Hi,
Here we go again!
A a further update.
Today LABC warranty concilliation told me more or less to go away. They have concluded no visit to site required and that there is no breach of their technical manual because the third party report on the mortar analysis proves that there is nothing wrong.
So no defect lets the developer off. Strange that their South West regional managing director has had discussions with them prior to the verdict. The following are taken from an email sent by warranty before the testing:
"The property is in an area considered a severe weather exposure as per Technical Manual. Guidance on mortar strength is given in TM table 2.3.2.1c. External walls with high risk of saturation due to severe weather exposure should have a designation ii mortar. The developer will have to provide us with documentation showing that they have used the correct mortar."
The analysis of the mortar proved it to be designation iii. But that does not seem to matter anymore even though they are using the report as the be all and end all. There is no mention in there findings about weather zones or why a designation iii mortar is now suitable and they refuse to discuss their findings or reasoning.
So how good are LABC warranty? Have they ignored their Technical manual?
I would not mind if there was a reasoned argument to back it up but all there is, the report was beginning, middle and end of the argument. So I am losing mortar but there is no defect and they have given no direction to the developer.
-
In my opinion LABC warranty isn't worth the paper its written on. I get many buyers who tell me their claims are dismissed out of hand. I always say that if there is no NHBC warranty, walk away. Even so, NHBC warranty also has a very poor record for sorting out and preventing weak mortar issues in the homes it inspects. If it does, they are covered by non-disclosure agreements so others on the development never know.
All you can do now is write to the LABC and ask for them to send you a 'deadlock letter' so you can make a formal complaint (about LABC warranty) to the Financial Ombudsman Services. It wont cost you anything to do this and it be recorded against LABC in FOS statistics.
-
Another update.
I have refused the offer to sign a non disclosure agreement.
As far as I am concerned as the problem was reported within the first 2 years and they have to carry out the repairs without trying to gag me.
This west facing wall that I believe has the problems being caused by incorrect exposure zone leading to incorrect mortar. 18 days after the 2-year with Bloor Homes expired, my westerly facing roof has tiles lifting!! Coincidence or bad workmanship?
I carry on.
-
I am pleased you refused to be gagged. If only more buyers had the courage to do this.
Trouble is, for most, money talks and they would rather have a small cheque and their home fixed than spread the word about the terrible standard of new homes and dire service from housebuilders.
That then gives this terrible industry to claim that those like you who have problems are "isolated instances and the vast majority of new home buyers dint have any issues"
I think the roof tiles are a coincidence (in timing) as they could have lifted at any time due to bad workmanship.
-
Further update.
Having complained to MDInsurance (underwriters of LABC warranty) about the decision on my mortar, they agreed to look at it again based on my complaint being about the exposure zone.
It has taken them 13 working days for warranty to tell me that Bloor have provided information that BS 8104 has been applied correctly and that the wall in question is sheltered.
So without coming to review the property, they have applied all the evidence that Bloor have supplied and declared exposure and mortar are fine and that there is no defect. So why did they not sort this out at the beginning of March? Anyway I still have weak mortar, not caused by rain or frost at time of build, not caused by defective mortar or incorrect exposure but will anybody give a reason why there is an issue?
The regional managing director saw the mortar so you might expect him to be saying that they need to find the reason, but no word from him at all. Logic says to me it is the exposure despite the position they have adopted as we cannot leave the upstairs windows open when the wind blows there are 250 perps in the car port that can be rubbed out, but warranty ignored this. Two days of this week homeowners are being visited by Bloor and cavity wall insulation installers because houses appear to only have insulation installed up to head height. Bloor knew but did not see fit to inform us but it got around through Facebook.
Thanks for taking the time to review what I write.
-
Firstly MD Insurance do not underwrite the LABC or Premier Guarantee warranty they are scheme administrators. The policies are underwritten by AmTrust Europe Limited. AmTrust Europe Limited is part of the AmTrust Group.
As the mortar can be rubbed out it has clearly failed (for whatever reason) and therefore does not comply with Building Regulations and is not "fit for purpose" Bloor Homes are also in breach of contract as they have not built your home in accordance with Building Regulations and in a workmanlike manner!
As for LABC, this is why I always say to buyers, if the home does not have a NHBC warranty, walk away!
-
I have come on here today to have a rant at the way LABC warranty have dealt with my complaint.
I understand that there would be a reluctance to accept that Bloor homes architects could make a mistake when looking at wind and rain exposure but to have dismissed my claim in favour of a desktop review I find appalling.
I have told MDInsurance that I could have sent a RICS report and it would have been ignored.
Their surveyor is working off photos I sent and photos he took last October and his opinion is that there are a few 'minor problems'. Having been told that there are 250 perps in the carport that I can remove by rubbing out they did not even comment on it.
I have told them my evidence was physical but still they would not come for a look. Having a look would have raised the question that all was not as it should be despite the paperwork saying otherwise. I have asked them to tell me what level of evidence they expect householders to provide them with but I do not expect an answer. My neighbours have now found issues with their mortar but this will be dismissed because warranty have ruled on my case. I will not give up on this and now I have a grievance not only against Bloor but warranty as well.
Rant over.
-
Feel free to rant. You have every good reason. The very least that Bloor and LABC can and should do is come and look at the problem. A desktop study or design does not mean that something will not fail in the real world. Buildings do fall down.
Likewise whatever the suitability of the design of the mortar mix on paper, there are so many things that can and do go wrong that cause mortar to be weak or soft.
A visit to your home is essential.
Next step, write to LABC and say if they refuse to properly consider your genuine warranty claim seriously, you will be complaining to the financial ombudsman.
I think iot is also time for you to join forces with your neighbours and share information and decide on a joint action. Strength in numbers. Housebuilders divide and conquer!
-
HI am still trying to understand why my mortar can be rubbed out so have been asking about the use of BS8104 and all I am getting is that the stations used for the site are sy3, sy4 and py9.
Cannot find what these relate to but apparently they comfirm the site to be sheltered or moderate. Which of course means nothing is making the mortar come out, except it must be doing it to itself.
Strange!!
-
See NHBC Exposure map below.
-
See required mortar mixes for each below:
What you should have and what you have got are different. Expect mortar test results to say otherwise and NHBC "expert" to recommend, at best, a 25mm rake and repoint.
Quite why the NHBC don't require mortar test cubes and a mix by proportions not a design mix I don't know.
-
Here I go again.
With respect to the mortar, that has been my ongoing argument but they are saying I am sheltered so they can use a M4.
Anyway served a SAR on both Bloor Homes and LABC warranty about communication between themselves and the exposure on my wall. I have now received details back and there are no copies of any communication between them.
All I received from warranty was copies of my own discussions with them. This must mean that all of their dealings have been put into different files and regardless of the content about my house none have been released. I must wonder who the true policyholder is, as everything appears to protect Bloors position! One or two emails did slip through from Bloor though, like not revealing all to my MP.
Or that they had a report carried out which they could have used to prove their position but have not made this available to me or the one ending in "this proves we have used the wrong mortar".
There are a lot of threads but these are not passed on. So am I allowed to have the information that has gone backward and forward about my house?
I will continue to dig.
-
Had a follow up with MD Insurance today who have told me I cannot have the emails from Bloor because it would breach their data protection. I pointed out to them that the people they have been exchanging information with, that it is likely that they are known to me, as will be their contact details as we have exchanged many emails over the past 2 years I have also said the same to Bloor and that I am expecting to see the emails they have exchanged.I look forward to their response.
-
Here I go again.
One or two emails did slip through from Bloor though, like not revealing all to my MP.
Or that they had a report carried out which "this proves we have used the wrong mortar".
If they have forwarded something like that it means they have acknowledged you have a valid claim.
Clearly they are trying to deceive you and are withholding copies of information appertaining to you/your property which under GDPR they must disclose.
I would strongly suggest you write to them today giving them seven days (or the remaining time left on your SAR) to supply all withheld information or you will be complaining to the ICO regarding their breach of the GDPR 2018.
Whatever else it shows you are onto something, you were right to pursue this and you are getting nearer the undisputed truth - your home has been built with the incorrect mortar.