New Home Owners And Snagging Forum
Advice on buying a brand new home => Snagging and defects => Topic started by: PSE on February 21, 2016, 02:08:22 am
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Hi
We've noticed in our new build property that there are areas where the mortar joints seem soft and crumbly. We've reported this to the builder who has said it is surface frost damage. They've had a company that specialises in brick and mortar repairs visit the site and have proposed that when the weather is a bit warmer they attend and rake out the damaged mortar and re-point. I've asked the builder that I would like the mortar lab tested to try to find out what was the cause of it being soft and crumbly in places. I've recently noticed though in a couple more areas where under the surface of the mortar there are areas of black in the mortar joints that is more like charcoal?? I'm obviously now extremely concerned with regards to what this is and what has caused this. Before I go back to the builder with this I wondered if anyone has or had anything like this problem or what the cause maybe?? I've searched the internet but not really found any answers.
Thank you in advance.
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First of all, I have no idea what the black in the mortar could be.
At a guess I would say it could be an iron compound but that would rust, or black powder used to colour the mortar, or indeed black, rotting pieces of wood/charcoal. It will need to be analysed.
You have a Bellway house and Bellway have some history in building homes with weak mortar, this instance had disastrous consequences for the home owner. (http://forum.snagging.org/nhbc/2077-nhbc-butchered-my-roof.html) In this instance the roof repair was "botched" and the mortar was found to be weak and the wrong specification of bricks were used. I believe the NHBC bought the house and it was demolished although "Col" probably signed a Confidentiality Agreement aka "gagging order".
It is possible that frost is the cause, with the action of freeze-thawing.
It could also be that the mortar had not sufficiently cured (and/or was not protected) and was subject to freezing temperatures.
The mortar [it looks like] may not have sufficient cement in the mix but this would need to be tested in a laboratory to confirm.
Is this in just one section or band (known as a lift in the industry) of about 1200 to 1500mm in height or is it on a whole elevation?
If it was a band it could be just frost damage.
You could use a car key and twist in into a joint and see how far the mortar crumbles and it goes in.
If it stops or is harder after 12mm or so then re-pointing may be a sufficient remedy.
What you really must do is WRITE to the NHBC now, notifying them of this. It is structural and they may have to sort this out in the years to come!
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Thank you for your reply and advice again.
It's certainly on two elevations like this but on the other two elevations it's partly rendered so partly hidden. On one elevation it's at about 1.25m from the ground and also at about 4m.
Thanks again.
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As it is not everywhere, it is probably frost damage. It appears to be at the top of the day's lift, the last brickwork laid so that would be the wettest and more likely to freeze and be damaged.
I am also assuming Bellway used ready mix 'Silo' mortar and did not batch it on site from a pile of sand and bags of cement.
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The mortar seems soft in a few places and if you rub your finger along the bed you can get sand to fall but if you rub your finger along the mortar say on the detached garage it's very hard and get no/very little sand to fall.
As for the black in the mortar that's certainly on at least two elevations, and looks like if I were to scrape the light covering away it would be visible in quite a few places. It also looks like the builder has covered this over prior to completion hide it.
The areas like in the photo where the vertical joint has washed away is only visible though on a few joints. The house is also 1/4 rendered (two elevations all brick and two elevations 1/2 render) so obviously well hidden there.
Thank you again for your reply.
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Sounds like frost damage to me caused before the mortar had set/cured.
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We eventually had a NHBC Resolution Meeting regarding the soft mortar in some places.
The NHBC requested Bellway Homes get the mortar tested on all four elevations with one sample from areas where it showed signs of erosion and one area where it looked ok on each elevation. The samples would then be split into two, with one sent to the lab for testing whilst the other was left with me so if I required my own testing done.
The results from the tests should be sent to Bellway, the NHBC, and myself. I opted to have my own testing done on two samples with one being from an elevation that showed signs of erosion and the other from another elevation where it looked ok. I had my results back today from my tests and it shows the mortar to be a 1 : 8 cement:sand mix on both tests, I checked with the NHBC Technical Dept. and they informed me it should be 1 : 4.5 for my area. I'm yet to receive the results back from Bellway for one reason or another. I also have a meeting tomorrow with their Customer Care Manager.
Obviously as the NHBC are involved so they will probably have the final say but what should really be done regarding this and what should I be asking for (apart from my money back)?
Any help and advice will be gratefully received.
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You might like to look at this.
A Taylor Wimpey buyer with exactly the same problem.
https://www.facebook.com/Taylor-Wimpey-Disintegrating-Mortar-637387146438116/ (https://www.facebook.com/Taylor-Wimpey-Disintegrating-Mortar-637387146438116/)
For a start you should get the test results from Bellway. Call your NHBC contact and ask if they have had the test results.
The "solution" is likely to be to rake out 25mm of the joints and re point with stronger mortar.
This might be acceptable for frost damage but not for weak mortar.
However, most wall ties will not extend to within 25mm of the face of the brickwork. Whilst this will weatherproof the brickwork and stop the weak mortar eroding further, it does not mean the wall is secure and fully attached to the inner skin.
This will mean the cavity wall stability is in doubt.
You may have seen on the news what happens when this is the case as in the school in Edinburgh.
As far as I can see, the only solution is to take down the brickwork and re build it with the right mortar.
The trouble is, your home is unlikely to be the only one and this extensive work will mean others will complain too, perhaps the whole development!
Neither Bellway, the NHBC and perhaps you from a hassle point of view will want to do this.
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Thank you for your reply and advice.
I did contact the NHBC yesterday and they have not yet received their copy of the testing results.
The builder is visiting today as we should be moving out next week for them to do the remedial work to the bay windows and the supposed frost damaged mortar joints. I will now cancel this until we have their testing results and have accepted their and NHBC proposals on this.
Thank you once again.
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Just to update you.
The builder verbally gave me the results from their testing today and from the 10 tests that were done the results were virtually the same as mine, ranging from cement:sand 1:7 to 1:9.
The mortar company that supplied the mortar have said it should have been class M4 but looking on the Cemex site M4 equivalent would be 1:5-6.
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From the NHBC Standards, the mix the NHBC quoted - 1 : 4.5 would appear to be for masonry cement, not ordinary Portland Cement (OPC)
The correct mix should be - 1 : 5.5.
Now the big question is, clearly the supplier didn't supply the right mix, which lets Bellway off the hook financially, although they should be putting it right for you. CEMEX will no doubt try and fight this too.
But the facts are clear, the mix supplied is 1:7 at best.
From CEMEX website mix tables this means the strength of the mortar is around half (2N/mm2) what was specified (> 4N/mm2) and presumably ordered.
Worthy of note, CEMEX website also states:
Advantages
CEMEX Dry Silo Mortar systems have a number of advantages over traditional site mixed mortar.
- Guaranteed strength
- Guaranteed cement content
- Controlled air content
- Consistent colour
- Increased site productivity
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Thank you for your reply.
The actual mortar supplier was Marshalls Premier Mortar. I used the Cemex site to compare a 4N/mm2 to show what mix ratio it should have been.
Thank you once again for your help and advice.
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This is the actual (or should have been) M4 Ready To Use mortar that was used above DPC.
http://www.premiermortars.co.uk/mortars/ready-to-use-mortar
The data they supply does not give you an actual mix ratio and only compressive strength, and shear strength for each Ready To Use Mortar class unlike the Cemex site. I have emailed them for a equivalent mix ratio but I'm not sure if they would supply me with this information??
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I suspect that the mix ratio might be commercially sensitive.
Nevertheless, The mortar they have supplied failed to comply with Bellway and NHBC specifications.
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Thank you for your reply.
They did reply and the mix ratio is 1:6
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So it should have been 1 : 6 and has been laboratory tested showing it is in reality weaker at 1 : 7 at best. Now we wait I suppose for the manufacturer's "allowable tolerances" so they can wriggle out of it?
Also it is weaker than the NHBC require 1 : 5.5 which is Bellway's fault!
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I had an email back from the mortar company saying that their:
"M4 Ready To Use Mortar is a design mix and this is not a volumetric mix produced to prescribed mix proportions. I am afraid therefore that your quoted cement : sand proportions are academic in this respect.
Design mixes are the result of regular routine sampling and testing in accordance with the relevant British and European Standards to ensure a minimum compressive strength performance in laboratory conditions. They are our own recipe, which can be subject to change at any time and are not in any way linked to mix proportions. Our M4 mortar exceeds 4N/mm2 at 28 days when sampled, cured and tested in accordance with the Standards. Naturally fully audited historical test data is on file to this effect."
"I am sure that you appreciate that we are not in control of the manner in which our mortar is stored, handled, laid and cured on site. Site practice and conditions have a significant effect on the eventual performance and durability of the product. If your mortar is "soft" I would respectfully suggest that you consider factors such as the ambient temperature and prevailing conditions at the time of the build and throughout the subsequent period of curing and strength gain. You should also consider the moisture level of the substrate, the level of protection provided and the nature of any brick cleaning that may have been carried out."
However if you look at http://www.marshalls.co.uk/dam-svc/AssetStore/Premier-Mortars-360.pdf it says 1:6.
This is all getting very confusing????? :(
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I think they are anticipating getting the blame and have their standard "get out of jail free card" of excuses/explanations as to why its someone else's fault.
To be sure, they will "find" a sample or record dated and tested that would coincide with the delivery batch. This is how its done. When cubes for testing are taken, they make a couple of spares. These are number coded and stored and cured to achieve absolute maximum possible strength. If ever, on any site, a mortar or concrete is found to be under strength, they have "spares" available for a re-test.
It is true they "do not control the manner in which the mortar is used" as they describe are all very possible and viable ways that mortar could be weakened. Perhaps, although I am not certain how a compression test could now be carried out on your mortar, this is what would be needed to prove it is under strength. Even then, the "manner" excuses/explanations still hold.
I believe that you should have 4n/mm2 mortar achieved by using a 1 :5.5 cement : sand mix.
This is what is required, specified and sold to you - a home built to NHBC Standards.
Perhaps the NHBC can get an expert witness who can predict from the mix proportions in the samples tested, that 4n/mm2 can never be achieved. This would then have nothing to do with any their "manner" explanations.
The important issue is that the NHBC and/or Bellway agree and undertake to take down the brickwork and re build in the correct strength/mix mortar. But, as winter approaches, perhaps the re build should be postponed until April-May next year, to minimise the disruption to you.
NHBC/Bellway may wish after the rebuild to start legal proceedings with Marshalls to recover some/all of the costs involved.
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Thank you again for your reply and advice :).
I think the thing that was confusing me was their reply stating the ratio tests were academic as their mortar is not a volumetric mix.
I'm so glad at this stage that we had the Legal Cover on our house insurance when we purchased the property.
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Regarding Legal Expenses cover, it's worth having for £24 extra a year.
But, and here's the rub, even if they accept to take your claim on, at all times during the legal action, they (not you) must believe they have a greater than 50% chance of winning the case.
The moment they think it is less than 50% they will stop paying the legal costs.
Until the NHBC refuse the claim, that will be your best and easiest option for a remedy, or at least until a New Homes Ombudsman is finally set up.
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Thank you for your reply and I was typing this when you replied.
I suppose the other annoying thing is that I first notified the builder regarding the soft mortar on 15th September 2015. The builder viewed it in October and said it was frost damage, and it was agreed to wait until the spring 2016 to get it done. However the more I looked at it the more I did not like it especially with the large black particles that were evident in a few places. The builder then sent a Marshalls Premier Mortar representative to view the mortar and the black particles and they stated that the mortar was fine even though you could scratch the surface away with your fingernail in some places they said it is made to a compressive strength and they said the black particles were a coal like substance.
In May this year the builder sent their contracting company who specialise in brick tinting to rectify the supposed frost damaged mortar over about two weeks but when I cleaned the windows upstairs there was still soft mortar evident after they had informed me they had checked it all before they had finished. Obviously they were just told to bodge it to make it look ok from ground level.
Here we are in September 2016 and still not sure what action the builder proposes to take and i think this will drag on for several months??
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I know you are involved in the campaigning for the New Home Ombudsman and have done a brilliant job. When do you think this will actually happen??
Thank you once again for your help and advice.
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Therein lies the $64m question.
I have contacted all 650 MP's since the report was published on 13 July 2016.
I have e mailed several MP's since when buyers have contacted me with problems that their housebuilder isn't doing anything at all about - some quite shocking.
In total just SEVEN have replied saying they will support the setting up by the DCLG of a new Homes Ombudsman.
The APPG chair Oliver Colvile MP (for Plymouth) said in the report he is "positively passionate about this issue" but as far as I am aware, has done nothing at all since the report was published.
I have written to my media contacts asking for them to write a story or mention it on the main news. So far nothing!
Today, I have started a Petition to Parliament.
It will need 10,000 people to sign it before it even gets a response and 150,000 signing before it is debated. This in six months.
Here is the link and I urge everyone to sign it, even if you don't own a new home. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/167660
I've posted it everywhere but it will need 100,000 people to actually sign it for a debate in Parliament. Sadly I feel most can't be bothered!
So in answer to your question, as it stands, buyers like you will be able to use a New Homes Ombudsman Service anytime between a week and sometime never!
Only people power will change this, I am only one person.
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Just an update and a question.
In the NHBC Resolution Report it stated:
"The mortar for the build was a pre-mixed mortar therefore I suspect that the areas that are soft or exhibiting signs of erosion may have suffered some frost damage during curing.
In order to determine mix ratio’s mortar testing should be carried out."
The builder and myself have both had separate testing done. The results all state that the cement:sand ratio ranges from 1:7 at best to 1:9 at worst.
The mortar company claim that the mortar is a design mix so the mortar is produced to a compression strength of 4n/mm2 when fully cured after 28 days in lab conditions. They also claim the mortar is not produced to mix ratios so the testing that the builder and myself had done is academic. They claim that when it left the factory it would be fully tested to produce the compressive strength stated, however they are not responsible for what happens to the Mortar when it leaves the factory (how it's stored, altered, used, cleaned etc).
Bellway are saying the same as the mortar company now except in their email to me they obviously erased the part about what happens to the Mortar when it leaves the factory.
The testing has been done to the NHBC report (at a cost to me of £360) but the mortar company are refusing to acknowledge this. If the testing is "Academic" in this case could I claim the £360 back from the NHBC as their information was wrong?
Also I've asked the mortar company if there's any test that can be done now to test the mortar for compressive strength in situ but they claim not??
A crazy situation if this is true as I can't believe that they've never sent out poor mortar but if so no one could prove it?
Thank you in advance for any advice or information.
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The actions of all three responsible is quite frankly diabolical and irresponsible.
I expect it would be quite different if it was a single house development!
If as you say parts of e mails to you have been edited, I suggest you make a Subject Access Request to the NHBC, Mortar Company and Bellway and check what you get sent by them in the 40 days they are permitted to comply. It will cost you £10 for each SAR but it may be well worth it.
Obviously there is a way to test compressive strength of mortar in a built wall.
Sections of wall could be cut out and tested. Small sections of mortar cold be tested.
Above all else, the mix proportions that determine the compressive strength so it is ridiculous for thr Marshalls to claim that their mortar is not batched in specific mix ratios!
I suggest you send what you have to the NHBC and tell them to sort this out. It is the NHBC that warranty the structural integrity of your home.
I can assure you that this is happening all over the country with most of the major housebuilders and all of them and the NHBC fight any claim that would result in re building the brickwork on a whole estate.
Here's another from 2011! (http://forum.snagging.org/snagging-requests-for-help/1736-weak-mortar-used-house-construction.html) Same situation as you.
It also happened on a site in Angmering West Sussex in 2002/3. Taylor Woodrow trading as Bryant built it and every house on that site had the brickwork taken down and re built. I know because the foreman bricklayer who was overseeing the works (which took two years) worked on my site at the time as well.
Don't worry about the £360 for the testing. You can claim that back after the works are done as compensation will also be due to you. The important issue is to get the brickwork rebuilt. What then your neighbour's do is up to them. You will have to sign a gagging order though so the media never get hold of it (at least from you that is!)
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Thank you for your reply and advice.
To be fair I contacted Marshalls head office and never gave any information except my name and email address and as far as I know the Bellway was unaware I was in contact with them. The answer I got was virtually word for word what the Bellway also sent me except mine had some of the reasons after the mortar had left the factory and the builder's version didn't and they would never send me that anyway.
I spoke to the NHBC today to the person in claims dealing with my issues. They stated that they had an email from the Claims Investigator and the email had said Bellway to address the mortar to reach their Technical Standards.
I asked the question what would that then be? They started to say about having it all pointed up but I stopped them and stated I would find that hard to believe that just repointing would reach their Technical Standards. I stated that the mortar in some areas is only about 50% of the strength that it should be, I then asked about the Load Bearing Walls as they would be built from the same mortar. Obviously they were not technically minded so they will firstly go to the builder to ask them what they proposed to do and then go back to the Claims Investigator.
I also asked the question about when I insure my house next year and the question is asked "is your property structurally sound" and I have to tell them that I'm not sure as the mortar it was built from was not to the required standard. I said there will then be 1001 other questions and then I will get told that unfortunately they will be unable to insure my house based on what I had told them.
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Just to update you.
I spoke to Bellway today for any update and they stated they were still waiting for guidance from the NHBC. They also stated that the Construction Director had emailed a Director at the NHBC regarding this.
I then spoke to the Claims Handler at the NHBC and they stated that they'd had a meeting with their Supervisor yesterday also regarding this. They are now going to get the Claims Investigator to write up a plan of action to give to Bellway and myself to bring it up to the NHBC Technical Standards.
Mmm I smell a rat here I think??
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First of all don't tell any insurers.
How are you to know your home has weak mortar? Its not a question I have ever come across when insuring my home either. Subsidence maybe, flooding maybe. But how would Joe public know if their home was structurally sound? Even the NHBC seem to be having a problem understanding this.
As I said earlier, they will all collude and the course of action will be to rake out the joints to a depth of 25mm and re point with stronger mortar. This is the easiest and cheapest but is not s structurally solution for under strength weak mortar. The ties could well be useless and as you say internal loadbearing walls could be affected. This being the case, I think you might have to consider asking Bellway/NHBC buy your house off you so you can walk away.
Once you have got the "proposal" tell the NHBC you will go to the press and write to your MP if the claim is not dealt with properly and professionally.
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Thank you for your reply and advice.
I thought that was a question that was asked though when you insure a house but it must be me who's got it wrong.
I'll wait for the proposal to see what the plan of action is but I guess you've already got a good idea what the answer what it will be.
Thank you once again
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Just a quick update.
I think the colluding has started! >:( >:(
I tried to contact my Claims Handler at the NHBC yesterday but did not get an answer by telephone. I selected to be put through to Claims and spoke to someone else.
I asked if there was any update yet to my claim as when I spoke to my Claims Handler the other day they were waiting for a reply from the Claims Investigator. The person checked my file and said yes there was an update and it was from the Claims Investigator however they advised me it was best if my Claims Handler calls me back.
After about an hour I called my Claims Handler again and I stated that I had been advised by their colleague that there was an update from the Claims Investigator on my file. They replied that unfortunately the Claims Investigator had sent a reply but for a completely different claim that had a very similar number to mine! They then informed me that the builder's director had contacted a director at the NHBC regarding this and it had been passed down to the area manager to look at. They also stated that the builder is claiming that the mortar is to a compressive strength (4n/mm2) and not therefore to a mix ratio.
What also annoys me is Bellway had already stated in an email (I think?) that they will do whatever the outcome of the claim with the NHBC but obviously as it did not look like it was going in their favour the Construction Director has got involved with a director at the NHBC.
I think I may have to give the Daily Telegraph a call regarding this and the way it's going! ;) ;)
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And the wheels on the bus go round and round!
Whatever the mortar mix is judged by proportions or strength, it is clearly not strong enough and is failing.
It is the amount of cement that gives the strength so the proportions are critical for mortar strength.
I expect the next get out will be the NHBC only agreeing to rectify the "damage" caused by the defect from the required standards not being met, not the actual "cause" - incorrect weak mortar.
This will lead to a suggested "solution" of re pointing rather than re building.
It really does seem that senior staff at both Bellway and the NHBC are agreeing in private a course that suits them rather than what is needed.
If the New Homes Ombudsman existed now, perhaps it would be different.
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Thank you for your reply.
It certainly does look that way and makes a real farce out of the Resolution Service that the NHBC offer. I thought though as we were still in our first 2 years the NHBC would be putting more pressure on the builder to do it to their standards.
I'll wait for the report before my next plan of attack. Over the 18 months this has been like a full time job trying to keep on top of it all especially when they are as corrupt as this lot!!!
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You would think that the NHBC would be keen to resolve this inside the first tow years.
However, as you reported it within the first tow years it is still Bellway's liability under the warranty until it is rectified, even after the two year period.
Not that this matters, as the NHBC spent £26million rectifying defects in the first two years of the warranty in their last published annual accounts report.
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Thank you for your reply.
We even had an email from the builder in August stating that they
"had re visited the Resolution Report and will conform to all the recommendations and findings of that report."
But when the mortar results came back they changed that and the directors got involved. :'(
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Still no news on any proposal yet. I spoke to the NHBC yesterday and were informed by the claims person that they are still waiting for the powers that be to make a decision.
I thought this would have been all sorted by now.
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Getting people to take responsibility, especially when money is concerned takes time.
It is not just your house but potentially the whole development.
They will want to silence (Gagging Order) in any agreement reached.
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Finally got the NHBC Resolution Report and as predicted they stated to rake out the mortar to a minimum depth of 25mm and repoint. It took 4 weeks to reach that decision??? No gagging order though.
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Unless the mortar was affected by frost, which yours isn't as it does not have enough cement in it (as tested) this will only stop it falling out further.
The wall itself will be weak and the wall ties will be bedded in the weak mortar that remains.
Suffice to say that it may well be many years into the future before it gets serious, by that time the NHBC warranty and Bellway's responsibilities for the property may well be long gone.
I think you need to make contact with this chap as he has the same problem and same NHBC decision as you have. (although his house was built by Taylor Wimpey)
https://www.facebook.com/Taylor-Wimpey-Disintegrating-Mortar-637387146438116/
Actually, I've just clicked that link and guess what, the page has since been taken down!
All very suspicious! Perhaps the NHBC or Taylor Wimpey got at him!
Its a pity buyers do this as those that follow have no information or case history to go by.
Nevertheless, you can still see his post about it on my Facebook Group here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/unhappynewhomebuyers/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/unhappynewhomebuyers/permalink/1044853292307529/?match=ZGlzaW50ZWdyYXRpbmcsdGF5bG9yIHdpbXBleSxtb3J0YXI%3D)
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Yes the NHBC Resolution is to bodge it so it will last the remaining years of the 10 year warranty. Even though In the 2013 NHBC Standards Technical Requirements Chapter 1.1 it states:
"R3 Materials requirement All materials, products and building systems shall be suitable for their intended purpose"
"The structure of the home shall, unless specifically agreed otherwise in writing with NHBC, have a life of at least 60 years. Individual components and assemblies, not integral to the structure, may have a lesser durability and need planned maintenance, repair or replacement during that period."
As the mortar is weak how can they say the structure will now still last 60 years??
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I have just been looking through my NHBC Updated Resolution Report again.
In the Report it states that the builder must rake out 25mm etc and then states so their Technical Standards 2013 R4 are met? Strangely there is no mention of and more importantly their Technical Standards 2013 R3 having to be met?
Conclusion:
Either the NHBC and the builder are fully aware that by just repointing the facing bricks by 25mm their Technical Standards 2013 R3 could never be met.
Or.
Crazily I know - as my original Resolution Meeting was due to just the facing bricks mortar being weak/eroding (suspected frost damage as I was told) the NHBC Claims have just processed the claim on that alone and not taken into account the load bearing walls etc and the same mortar being used.
If then the latter is the case I would then need to put another Claim in with the NHBC based on the fact that as the facing bricks mortar is weak I suspect the Load Bearing walls mortar to be also weak. I would then have another Claims Resolution Meeting and eventually they would have to come and make a decision take mortar samples of the Load Bearing Walls from inside the loft and then go through the same process again?
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To check the internal mortar, a section of the block wall would need to be exposed and some mortar samples taken inside your house.
It is normal practice to build the brickwork first so it could be that the blockwork may have been built with a different mix, especially is coloured mortar was used for the brickwork, or if a new delivery was made, which is probable at sometime in the superstructure build of your home.
The NHBC are not being fair in my opinion, perhaps you should leaflet EVERY house on your development and tell them of the weak mortar, or tell the NHBC that you will?
So much for the "peace of mind" warranty!
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I spoke to Bellway today and they have rejected the NHBC Updated Resolution Report and they have requested a meeting with themselves, The NHBC, the mortar company, and myself.
I wonder what deal they will do before they all arrive?
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Points to note:
1) It looks like you will be out-numbered.
2) They will most certainly not blame each other in front of you.
3) This meeting should be held between them and either the NHBC or Bellway report what has been decided as a course of action or what the options are.
4) Record the meeting on your phone or recording device. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt!
5) If you can, have legal representation or an expert attend with you.
6) Do not offer tea, coffee to them, They are not your friends or invited "guests".
7) Ask the NHBC what is happening to Keith Hume's Taylor Wimpey house at Kittlegairy - Kingsmeadows, Peebles. which has the same defect.
8 ) Ask about the possibility of NHBC/Bellway buying the house off you at a price agreeable to you plus moving expenses. They have done this before. Ask the NHBC about Colin Cumine's Bellway house at Dehaviland Way Skelmersdale Lancashire (November/December 2013) He was gagged by the NHBC - I'm not!
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I spoke to the mortar company yesterday as I wanted some information from them. I was told that they were unable to give me this information however Bellway had already been given this information. They also stated that they were having a meeting today with Bellway.
I also spoke to Bellway again yesterday and they are adamant the mortar is still OK?
I think they ordered the wrong mortar as it is a M4 Design Mix but as we know that doesn't necessarily have the cement content that the NHBC Standards 2013 states.
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What you can deduce from this is they are all running scared.
Obviously, this has implications for the whole development.
If only you could get hold of the discussions!
Perhaps once you have their final proposals, you should do a Subject Access Request (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/making-a-subject-access-request.htm) to the manufacturer, Bellway and the NHBC. It will only cost you £10 a time but the information you get back (they have 40 days to comply) might be very revealing!
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Earlier this week I asked Marshalls Premier Mortar for the "batch book records" for the mortar that was supplied for our property. Marshalls refused and said that as Bellway are their direct customer they could only give such things to them. However they did say that Bellway already had this information. When I asked Bellway for them they claimed that they didn't have them but as they were having a meeting yesterday, they should have them then. I received an email from Bellway today stating:
"The Batch book records you have asked me for have not yet been despatched to myself as yet and I am informed after my meeting with 'Marshalls Mortar' representative yesterday that they will be forwarded to me as soon as they are located within their systems/Archives, which may take a little time.
Unfortunately I have to forward them onto the NHBC and not to you direct."
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Don't worry, you can get hold of them by making a Subject Access Request to Bellway after the meeting as I suggested.
Quite frankly, the way these three separate entities appear to be colluding behind your back, with the sole common aim of protect their common interests at your expense is as disgusting as it is disgraceful - and you can quote me on that!
Anyone who now still buys a Bellway new home after reading this thread, must need their head examined and sanity questioned by a medical professional.
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I think you are 100% correct. :(
I spoke to the NHBC Claims Handler today and I could feel the fear in his voice that he had been told to tell me absolutely nothing and was an absolute nervous wreck. I asked him about Bellway rejecting the Updated Resolution Report and at first they said there was nothing on the file. When I said that the Bellway had told me they were dealing with him, he quickly changed the story to say they had received a email from them on Monday. I also asked them about the "batch book records" and if when they receive them would, I be entitled to a copy, to which they replied that they did not know but would find out as they had never been asked for this before.
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Just an update for you.
I sent the CEO's of both the NHBC and Bellway Homes emails regarding the updated Resolution Report stating that by just repointing 25mm to the facing bricks will this actually meet the NHBC Technical Requirements R3 as this was missing from the updated Resolution Report and only mentioned the NHBC Technical Requirement R4?
Also that it seems the 25mm repoint repair will probably suit everyone except myself as it will probably last long enough so they will all have no interest in my property when it finally fails (longer than 10 years but not the 60 years minimum as it should be). Even though the NHBC Technical Requirements state:
"R3 Materials requirement
All materials, products and building systems shall be suitable for their intended purpose.
The structure of the home shall, unless specifically agreed otherwise in writing with NHBC, have a life of at least 60 years. Individual components and assemblies, not integral to the structure, may have a lesser durability and need planned maintenance, repair or replacement during that period."
And surely mortar is integral to the structure?
I also stated that if the mortar to the facing bricks was not to standard it surely would also not be to the Load bearing Walls??
I did get a personal reply email from the CEO of the NHBC and it was also on a Sunday afternoon :).
I then received a letter from the Bellway Homes MD firstly saying they were contesting the NHBC's decision and they were giving me their assurance that there was no underlying defect in the mortar that affects my property. There was also a (fabricated for me) report from Marshalls Premier Mortar stating that they had visited the site on several occasions (even though I had previously stated to Bellway homes that if anyone visits regarding this issue I will always now want to be present) and the mortar was only suffering from frost damage by approximately 15% in total.
I called the person who wrote the report and they then admitted that they had never actually visited the site and the report was based on when their Sales Manager visited in March 2016 (his visit was also not regarding the soft mortar even though it was mentioned but regarding the black particles (lignite) in the mortar). The report also stated that at the time of production they were using a cement replacement that they are allowed to use and that the mortar tests would not of allowed for this.
I then got an email from the NHBC stating that if Bellway Homes contest the updated Resolution Report then it will have to go to arbitration and in which case the NHBC will be taking over the remedial works.
I then get another letter from the Bellway Homes MD stating that, even though there was nothing wrong with the mortar, they are now willing to repoint the whole of the property as the NHBC Updated Resolution Report states to bring a close to the matter. The letter also included more correspondence from Marshalls Premier Mortar stating some of the mix proportion used, again the cement replacement used, and the maximum replacement percentage that can be used. It also stated that the information was confidential and that they didn't want it put on the internet from my end (hence why I've not given the actual details).
The NHBC have now said they will be giving all the information to a Structural Engineer to visit and do a report.
And lastly another very interesting development has also come to light regarding this.
Since the NHBC requested that the mortar was tested and the results came back with the ratios (cement:sand) 1:7-1:9 I have been using the services of a suitably qualified person. I was also advised by the builder at the time the mortar testing was taking place the reason it was taking longer than anticipated was that the testing lab wanted to know exactly what cement was used in the mix.
I sent a copy of all the correspondence to the suitably qualified person for them to divulge. They have stated that in the actual mortar test results it states a totally different cement replacement and quantity percentage used to what Marshalls are saying in the reports from them that were included in the Bellway Homes MD letters.
I think someone has something to hide!
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Where to begin!
This clearly has the potential to be a huge scandal.
Bellway getting the mortar manufacturer to fabricate reports and claiming to have visited your property.
Bellway contesting the NHBC report/decision claiming that there is "no underlying defect in the mortar."
Until now I had never come across "cement replacement" in brick mortar.
So quite what are they replacing the cement with?
It would appear that ground granulated blast furnace slag (GGBS) and Pulverised Fuel Ash (PFA) are being used by Marshalls instead of cement. No wonder Marshalls don't want this mix on the Internet!
More information on GGBS and PFA here (http://www.engineeringcivil.com/which-of-the-following-cement-replacement-material-is-better-pfa-or-ggbs.html)
Bellway Homes have not been honest and appear to be trying to mislead to get away with the least expensive and least amount of work they can. The NHBC likewise whilst being your best chance of resolution, are also not fully addressing the issue.
As I said previously, tell your neighbours, their homes will have almost certainly been built with the same mortar!
The mortar is an integral part of the structure. Loadbearing internal blockwork, presumably not tested as yet, will be, in all probability, constructed using the same weak mortar. Unless, the external mortar is coloured.
Even with cement replacement the test results are not as per the mix Marshalls have given you.
I have e mailed Dr Peter Bonfield at the BRE (https://www.bre.co.uk/page.jsp?id=1732) with a link to this post to ask for his expert, non binding, observations as this is clearly an issue that needs independent expert clarification.