New Home Owners And Snagging Forum
Advice on buying a brand new home => Snagging and defects => Topic started by: daran on July 20, 2016, 09:56:04 pm
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Hi guys
Hope someone in here is able help and provide some advice/guidance.
Have bought a 3 bed, and all houses come with 2 parking bays. In my case the bay is behind my garden, and would have to park two cars one in front of the other. when buying buying the property we knew that was going to be the case.
However the first car (furthest in) is surrounded by garden fence from the neighbour behind us as well as the neighbor next to us on the right. Thus when parking the car it is very narrow and once parked difficult to exit the car (not fat!)
The second car would only be surrounded by the fence from our garden to the right of it, but the car would be right against the door leading out of the garden.
The problem is mainly parking the first car- the space is just wide enough to fit the car and have about 10cm either side of it. when parking the passenger side would be as close as possible to the fence in order to make it easier to exit/enter car, but even than its very difficult. every time there is a risk of damage to either car or surrounding fence!
Been trying to understand building regulations - specifically part M
Any advice is appreciated
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The standard for car parking spaces is they should be 2.4m wide and 4.8m deep.
How much room depends on the size of your car and extra obstructions such as fence posts and rails etc.
No front gardens, no 6m driveways (that used to be a planning standard in the late 80's) and parking in "garden areas" enable housebuilders to cram more homes per acre, increasing both their profits and the misery of the people that buy the homes they build.
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Thank you for your reply New Home Expert.
I have certainly come across those figures for parking space - They should be able to fit standard cars, however in my research that space should take into account the context it's in. As access to the vehicle should be possible- so my understanding is entry/exit and loading of vehicle.
The two cars in the house are a Mercedes C220 and BMW 320d- both of which I would say are standard size saloons. Both these cars will fit in the 2.4m x 4.8m space- but would only be able to drive in and out not be able to get out of cars!
I am trying to find out what rights I have when you have been given a parking space that is unusable. I appreciate having just a pole or garden post in the way is ok, but having a fully fenced wall on 3 sides of the space makes no sense!
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Your situation is similar to this one:
Garage too small for a car! (http://forum.brand-newhomes.co.uk/persimmon-homes/the-persimmon-new-home-with-a-garage-that-is-too-small-for-a-car!/)
A 2.4m wide parking space, does make an allowance for use of the gap with a neighbouring space to get in and out. You have a fence with no gap.
Not sure what solution might be other than compensation as not being fit for purpose.
You could try using the Consumer Code for Home Builders (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/claiming-compensation-adjudication-scheme.htm) but maximum claim is £15,000.
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Thank you again for reply- I did speak to NHBC they said they had no standard sizes or regulation for parking sizes- I was surprised as new rule state properties need to come with car parking.
They also referred me to Consumer Code- but my main question is : DO WE HAVE A CASE?
I have attached pictures of our situation: main problems is access to garden when second car parked and first car parking and entering/exiting it!
I have done some reading about local planning regulation- and the point that sticks out to me is Appendix 3(g).
http://www2.luton.gov.uk/localplan/written/cpt11.htm
Our development area used to be a industrial estate. Luton does state the figures of 2.4 x 4.9m but doesnt mention anything about surrounding fences.
Like I said I just would like some reassurance/opinion to see if I have a case and that I am not being unreasonable. I have just paid a large sum of money for a property with two car parking spot, and all I have is if anything one usable car parking spot that blocks out garden access.
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The Luton planning guidance is nearly ten years out of date!
Newer planning guidance that permits cramming of homes on sites and increasing density all but did away with parking space and driveway requirements. If Luton are hanging on to theirs good for them, but they would lose on appeal if they refuse planning on any of these grounds.
If you look at Appendix 3 2(e) it states that the internal width of a garage (with walls!) should be at least 2.2m yet a space without walls (or fences) needs to be 2.4m wide.
Like you, I am surprised the NHBC standards do not have a minimum size requirement for garage, drive and parking space drives widths.
You will only have a case using the Consumer Code if the parking space is less than 2.4m wide or less than stated on plans. Be sure to claim your £120 fee and the £250 maximum for "inconvenience."
Not sure what remedy you have unless you go for loss of property value which is excluded under the Code adjudication. Read the Consumer Code for Home Builders (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/consumer-code.htm) pages on my website for more information.
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Our home was also built by Persimmon homes.
As I understand a standard bay should be 2.4 x 4.9 - thus our parking which is for 2 cars should be 2.4x 9.8m (ours is 2.37 x 9.1m). We have told Persimmon homes about this and they said they would move fence by 3 cm- but I don't see that making any difference to parking situation - I also only realised we were also short on length once I started investigating this.
I have looked at the Consumer Code but no mention of any issues with parking, more to do with complaints handling. As mention when purchasing the property it was with two car parking spaces advertised! When showing us the plan the internal building plan was detailed but garden size or parking size was not mentioned. Only on global plan of development could you see where the parking spaces were.
As to appendix 3. 2 (e) - my understanding of that statement is more to alteration to property and building garage where the drive way needs to be 4.9m long and internal length of garage needs to be 4.9m long, the width of 2.2m is ok for storage garage but for parking cars is not big enough.
Also the link I provided for Luton is the latest information I could find online- do you happen to know if they got more up to date information out? I have been trying to talk to building control at Luton council.
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You need to Google "Planning PPG3" and read the many guidance notes.
The various revision to this meant that parking could be reduced and the requirements changed.
Luton Building Control is nothing to do with size of parking spaces. It is a planning matter.
If I were you, I would take the 3cm and anymore that may be possible.
Persimmon would at least have to pay for the fence to be moved, if that it, they ever get around to moving it! No doubt it will blow over on your car the first high winds you get next winter!
Basically, you can prove that the parking space isn't fit for purpose.
You were sold two parking spaces, one of which is not usable unless presumably you push you car into it by hand and chock the wheels!
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Hi thank you for reply,
Persimmon have been good in the sense that they will move the fence in the next 2 weeks to give extra 3cm. but this will not make any difference whatsoever!
Just been in touch with Luton council and they have asked me to contact developmental control and get the reference number and planning details to our plot.
This is just a bit of a headache when trying to utilise all the space you got is understandable but needs to be practical!
Thanks again for all your replies- much appreciated- I will update if there is or isn't a resolution to this.
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Having looked at your comments and responses, I don't think you have a lot of options open to you!
One would be to try and go for some compensation for being miss sold on the fact of having two usable parking spaces, even if the dimension they state are correct.
Maybe Luton council can help if it was the local authority that signed the house off.
Think what I would try (and get them to do for free) would be to have a large swing fence going across from your side gate and have the side fence removed by your house. This would at least mean to could use the rear parking space, then close the swing fence and use the front space as well.
Just an idea.
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Thank for your reply.
I have been in contact with both development control and planning control in Luton council. Planning control are unable to help as the application is not via them- but were helpful with advice.
Development control response was basic that if the dimensions are as per standard nothing they can do- but none of the standards say anything about having an obstruction either side of vehicle. Other boroughs eg Bedford clear state the measurements need to be taken with context (with access in mind)
NHBC response is that as they don't have standard measurements in their policy/ guidelines they can't help.
As to your idea, the garden fences you see in the empty parking space picture don't belong to my plot they belong to my neighbour to my right and behind me - only the fence with the door leading to my garden is mine. see attached picture of plots.
Plot 8 is ours, and garden fence from plot 7,9 and 10 surround the furthest car parking spot. To be fair its the furthest spot that unusable, but the second car can be parked and driver side access is easy, but does block the access door to the garden when parked.
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I see what you mean.
It seems plots 5, 6 & 7 got the better deal on parking spaces.
I don't see an option of what can be done then.
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I thought I would update, just in case others were going through similar problems.
We had to take it to Consumer Code, they reviewed the case and asked the builder to move the fence to the right by 30cm. This work has been carried out and the space is now usable but still tight.
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It just shows how bad this industry is that buyers like yourself have to use the Consumer Code for Home Builders (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/consumer-code.htm) dispute resolution to get a fence relocated to where it should have been in the first place!
Did you get your £120 registration fee refunded or any 'inconvenience' payment?
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Apologies for highjacking this thread, but I'm just wondering if the size for a double parking space is 4.8m?
Been to have a look at my house tonight and it could just be as the parking bay isn't finished yet, but it definitely doesn't look wide enough for two cars?
If I reverse in to my bay at least there is open space to the driver's side. But the plot next door is against a wall - does that mean it should have been made wider?
I've got a site visit on Friday. Can I ask to measure it or will they think I'm being funny?
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A single parking space is 2.4m wide so a double would be 4.8m wide.
But as you deduce this assumes that the area adjacent is also either a parking space or open.
Whether the 4.8m parking is adequate will depend to an extent on the size of cars parked.
You are quite within your rights to measure or check whatever you want.
My advice is check everything! get everything in writing. Trust no one!
What the housebuilder thinks of you doesn't matter. They will think you are stupid if you ignore your concerns and then bring it up when it is too late!
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Thank you again for reply- I did speak to NHBC they said they had no standard sizes or regulation for parking sizes- I was surprised as new rule state properties need to come with car parking.
They also referred me to Consumer Code- but my main question is : DO WE HAVE A CASE?
I have attached pictures of our situation: main problems is access to garden when second car parked and first car parking and entering/exiting it!
I have done some reading about local planning regulation- and the point that sticks out to me is Appendix 3(g).
http://www2.luton.gov.uk/localplan/written/cpt11.htm
Our development area used to be a industrial estate. Luton does state the figures of 2.4 x 4.9m but doesnt mention anything about surrounding fences.
Like I said I just would like some reassurance/opinion to see if I have a case and that I am not being unreasonable. I have just paid a large sum of money for a property with two car parking spot, and all I have is if anything one usable car parking spot that blocks out garden access.
Do you have a side door on the gable shown on the picture?
I don't see any reason on plan or on the photo why you need the fence to go all the way up the gable unless you have a door there. With the fence further down the gable you would have the option to reverse down and open your door fully.
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Hi - sorry for hijacking and resurrecting this old post.
I have moved into a new build in Dec 2018. My parking bay is sandwiched between two bays and the three bays are surrounded by 4 pillars and so essentially my neighbouring bays are less than 2.4m as the pillars take up some space. Although my space is full 2.4m wide, because of the pillars, my neighbours' cars are often parked on the line which then has an effect on my bay. And to make things worse, all three cars are big family cars.
Also, during the sales process, we were told that the parking bays are undercroft and covered, but the back of my bay is uncovered for ventilation. Hence 1/5 of my car is exposed outdoors.
Have tried speaking to the builders but they are of no help.
Would appreciate advice and suggestions.
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The issue of undercroft is misleading as clearly you do not have full 100% cover.
This means your car will develop faded paint and worse perhaps even be affected by degradation from the mortar or concrete structure above.
Regarding the parking spaces, the developer really should have spaced them between columns so everyone has the 2,4m minimum. As it stands, you can expect some door damage as inevitable.
However there is no solution I can see as your space is 2.4m.
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The issue of undercroft is misleading as clearly you do not have full 100% cover.
This means your car will develop faded paint and worse perhaps even be affected by degradation from the mortar or concrete structure above.
Regarding the parking spaces, the developer really should have spaced them between columns so everyone has the 2,4m minimum. As it stands, you can expect some door damage as inevitable.
However there is no solution I can see as your space is 2.4m.
Would there be any value in taking it up to the consumer code?
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The Consumer Code for Homebuilders is all their is for new home buyers until the New Homes Ombudsman is created by government.
Whether it is worth the effort of a claim is up to you. Most get around £250 compensation at best and any money incorrectly lost reimbursed.
At least now you can lodge a complaint for free. Until this year, it would have cost you £120!
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Thanks, do I have to go through NHBC first before the Independent Dispute Resolution Scheme (my understanding aka the Consumer Code)? The IDRS application form says I must be referred by the NHBC?
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Yes, they make it as difficult as possible.
You need to ask the NHBC for the form and your the policy number for your plot.
You can download an application form I obtained (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/Consumer-Code-Application-form.pdf) but it is quite old now and may not be current.