New Home Owners And Snagging Forum
Advice on buying a brand new home => Snagging and defects => Topic started by: Mugen on January 17, 2014, 12:36:48 am
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I bought a 4 bed detached from Redrow Homes (big mistake) around 2 years ago and like many, I have had numerous problems with the workmanship and have had to endure some appalling customer service!
One of the main problems we have is with creaking/cracking noises from floors/ceilings. Basically, when someone is walking around in a room on the first floor you can hear some kind of creaking within the room but at the same time these noises produces cracking type noises in the room directly below (appears to be from ceiling).
The floor construction is 22mm thick chipboard set on 240mm deep x 45mm TJI style timber joists set out at 600mm centres. It has been discovered that the boards have not been fixed down properly e.g. random patches of glue on joists, glue on the boards but completely missing the joists and like the odd screw somewhere. Limited presence of noggins, noggins too short, and overall poor workmanship.
Does anyone know what the NHBC standard/specification for fixing chipboard floors?
They should be glued and screwed?
Noggin requirements?
Any other information that I should be aware of?
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The relevant NHBC standards regarding chipboard flooring are:
"6.4 - S14
Flooring shall only be fixed when the dwelling is substantially weathertight
6.4 - S15
The length of nails should be 2½ times the thickness of the decking.
The ends of adjacent boards should be square. Joints should be staggered and supported on noggings or joists.
Temporary wedges and packings at the perimeter should be removed after the floor decking is complete.
6.4 - S18
Chipboard flooring shall be of the type and thickness specified
Only moisture-resistant, Type P5 chipboard to BS EN 312 should be used for flooring. Joist centres should not be greater than 450mm for board thickness of 18/20mm and 600mm for boards 22mm thick.
6.4 - S19
Chipboard flooring shall be securely fixed
Chipboard should be supported and fixed in accordance with manufacturers' instructions, using either
flat-headed ring shank nails minimum 3mm diameter and of length 2½ times the thickness of the chipboard, or screws.
Edges at room perimeters should be supported on joists or noggings.
Fixing centres to joists should be:
200mm - 300mm centres around the board perimeter
400mm - 500mm centres on intermediate supports.
Expansion gaps should be not less than 10mm wide where boards abut a rigid upstand. For larger areas of boarded floor a wider gap may be needed at upstands and intermediate expansion gaps equal to 2mm per linear metre of floor provided.
Tongued and grooved chipboard:
Boards should be laid with long edges at right angles to joists
Short edges should be supported on joists or noggings.
Projecting ends of boards should be cut back to form a butt joint on a joist.
To reduce squeaking, tongued and grooved joints between boards should be glued and the boards should be glued to the joists. A suitable polyvinyl acetate (PVAC) adhesive should be used."
The standards say "should" be glued not "must" be glued.
TJI joists must be installed strictly to the manufacturers' guidelines and design.
It may be that the joist spans are too large or joist section is too small, meaning you get excessive deflection in the joists of the larger rooms
It would also be useful for you/your engineers can get to see a copy of the TJI floor joist design.
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Thanks for the reply.
I know the joist manufacturer is Steico so will need to check out the specifications!
Regarding "TJI joists must be installed strictly to the manufacturer's guidelines and design"
I am just wondering would it be possible to post the extract along with the section numbers as it will come in handy when I argue with Redrow and the NHBC?
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The NHBC standards state:
"SITEWORK STANDARDS
6.4 - S1 All sitework shall:
(a) meet the Technical Requirements
(b) take account of the design
(c) follow established good practice and workmanship"
6.2 - S1 (with regard to timber frame components) states:
"All relevant information in a form suitable for the use of site operatives should be available on site before construction starts including:
- full set of drawings
- materials specification
- fixing schedules
- nailing details
- manufacturers' recommendations relating to proprietary items."
You shouldn't need to quote specific NHBC standards as the industry knows that manufacturer's designs and recommendations must be strictly followed.
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Hi Mugen
We have exactly the same issue with our Taylor Wimpey House - all of the issues with the floors were noticeable when we moved in 2 months ago and have got significantly worse as the house has "settled"
When someone is walking around upstairs, the noise is a very distinct and loud cracking sound and when walking on the thresholds of the rooms upstairs, the cracking and creaking is deferred a few feet away.
One of the smaller rooms has Amtico installed and you can physically feel the movement in the floor, as well as hear it! Interestingly, we have been advised that to sort the other rooms upstairs, the carpet can be lifted and fixed from above. But where Amtico is laid, rather then remove and reinstall the Amtico (at additional cost) - Taylor Wimpey will remove the ceiling underneath and go in from the ground floor and then redecorate the ceiling - although I'm scratching my head as to how they will fix the boards down from underneath?
Within a week of moving in, the outlines of the floorboards could be clearly seen through the plaster ceiling in the living room, even though the room above is not used!
We know that our house was exposed to very wet weather before the roof went on and also that it was rushed - so I guess only a closer look will determine what lies beneath.
I'd be very interested to hear how you get on, please keep us posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zr8s7gsrKs
:)
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Hi New Home Expert,
Thanks for the information will sure come in handy and the quest to beat the developer!!
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Hi TaylorWimpeyDidThis,
I had the NHBC meeting with the builder and conveniently enough they showed up at my door at the same time (read many of these stories before!) I found the NHBC rather friendly with the builder and one could easily mistake them to be friends or colleagues, they also addressed each other by first names (should I have been surprised? :-\). I felt that the NHBC investigator was on the developer's side for the most part and wasn't interested on what I had to say or I what wanted to show them (I wonder why???). They listened to the developer on what sections of the floor should be opened and I didn't get much of a say to be honest (I guess by this time you are not surprised either eh? :D)
However, I had an expert witness from the industry at the meeting who questioned some areas of floor and commented on bad workmanship when sections of it was opened up.
In the end the NHBC ruled in my favour, that the builder must relay the floors in the bedrooms but I felt that the investigations which took place were not adequate and thorough enough to conclude the work which has been ordered. I also overheard the NHBC say to the builder something along the lines of "you can't be seen to not do anything," whilst they were discussing amongst themselves (I can only assume that this came about because my expert witness had pushed them and that had some valid points on the failure of the floor!)
There was no discussion with me and they had already decided among themselves on what is going to be done whilst they had a little whisper meeting outside. I didn't get to have a say on what was going to happen or any real opportunity to ask anything as they were leaving. It was decided that the builder is to arrange works with me even though I did not have clear information on exactly what needs to be done, I was just told they know what to do at first until I questioned but even the answer was very vague.
It may appear that I have beaten the builder in this instance but I truly believe that I only got a result as I had a professional on my side, if not for that I think the builder would have won and walked away with a smirk. I do not really have much faith in the work which has been ordered, not only because the way I felt I had won but because the investigations were not thorough, plus I have had sections of the floors opened in one of my other rooms in the past, where the builder glued the boards down and added quite a few screws to secure the floor but did not make any difference (I actually mentioned this in the meeting too, but it was ignored). I have also read that others with similar issues had new boards installed but didn't rectify the issue. Moreover, I have spoken to a few people who experienced these problems who got a result with either the developer or NHBC by installing independent ceiling systems e.g. resilient bars or additional joists being inserted between the existing one to decouple the ceiling. So I some how feel that my victory maybe short lived.
I hope you get your issues sorted out and I will keep you posted as the event unfold.
Good Luck!
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Regarding the work that has been agreed will be done, the NHBC should (must) write to you following their inspection, detailing what was found wrong and what is proposed to put it right.
It makes sense for the NHBC and builder's representative to call on you together. otherwise one of them would be kept waiting.
It is also highly possible that they would know each other, especially if the builder's customers are always complaining to the NHBC! It is polite to be on first name terms too.
Perhaps the builder's representative was a customer care manager and would regularly speak with NHBC claims inspectors.
I would believe it is human nature to try and limit the extent of remedial works, especially in someone's home and especially when any improvement may be unlikely or they are unsure of the cause and how serious the issues may be.
The NHBC is far from perfect and they do have some empathy with the house builders.
But consider how bad things would be if the NHBC did not exist to inspect and set standards and force builders to fix problems?
The main problem with timber floors is they get too wet before the home is weatherproof.
In the old days, (before TJI and health and safety) the flooring was only installed after the roof was covered and the windows and external doors fitted!
TWDT
Drying out (aka "settling") is always more of a problem with timber frame new homes.
Floors cannot be fixed from underneath! Taylro Wimpey are trying to save themselves a bit of money in not having to relay the Amtico flooring, even though taking down a ceiling will be more of an inconvenience for their long suffering customer!
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Supposedly after work gets carried out and it does not fix the issue.
Do you know if I can have them out again to look at it say from a ceiling perspective since no investigations where carried out there?
Thanks again.
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You can get them out as many times as it takes to fix the issue.
Especially now, as they have acknowledged and accepted that a problem needs dealing with.
But.........it is not an issue with the ceiling and taking them down is very messy!
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Just had my NHBC report back. The report states that the builder is to relay all the floors with new ones.
This is to be done by cutting out to approx 150mm of the room perimeter in All the bedrooms on the first floor and the landing too.
So my floors creak and the ceiling in the rooms below make a cracking noise as previously mentioned.
Below Bed 1 is the Lounge, Beds 2&3 is the kitchen/diner. Bed 4 is above the guest toilet and part of hallway and the landing is just over the hallway.
I have some concerns and want to seek opinion and advice. Basically there are 4 bedrooms in my house. The problems are in bed 1, 2 and 3 and subsequently the rooms below it. I actually don't have a problem with the landing or bedroom 4. But the NHBC have ordered for works to be done in those areas too.
I am in doubt if the landing and Bed 4 should be touched at all as I fear more problems maybe created! The old term "if it ain't broke don't fix" it springs to mind!
My dilemma is that if I ask for the work not to be done in these two areas and what they do in my other rooms doesn't fix the problems, I am worried that the NHBC will not address it further since I did not agree with what they suggested. However, as these two areas do not have any problems I don't see why it actually needs to be done there too.
Also as mentioned I didn't really get a say on what was going to happen, I was just basically told what is going to happen, in affect the report states as agreed works to be carried out etc etc.. Also bare in mind the builder is awkward and given that they have been instructed to do this they could very well refuse what I want since they like to make life difficult.
Would appreciate any advice or suggestions on what I should do about this and any potential problems or concerns I should take into consideration will be most welcome.
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If the NHBC say that work needs to be done then I would advise all the work the NHBC says is done.
Even if there are not any issues in the areas you say at the present time, it doesn't mean there won't be in the future!
My guess is the NHBC inspector suspected (or the builder has confessed to him) that the joist installation may not exactly comply and they are insisting all the flooring is taken up so it can all be checked.
In any event, new 22mm chipboard flooring will be better than the existing flooring.
My advice therefore would be to allow all the works to take place.
As it will not be possible for the all the flooring to be taken up in one go, Redrow should give you a timetable (a detailed programme and a method statement of works) indicating their proposals as to what rooms or areas will be taken up and replaced on specific days.
You will need to make space for furniture to be moved and arrange for carpets to be taken up and replaced on a room by room basis. By the way, carpenters don't lay carpets and underlay!
You may also need new underlay if it has been stapled and damaged during removal. Make sure any new underlay is the best grade you (or Redrow!) can afford as this will help with insulation and impact noise.
You should also take time off so you or someone in your family can be there and see what is being done in your home. Do not trust Redrow or their contractors or leave them unattended.
I would also suggest you take photographs of the joists in each area once the flooring has been removed.
As a section of flooring is remaining at the room perimeters, this must be supported on a continuous noggin one way and on a full floor joist the other. As you have Steico TJI type joists the noggins should be supported on proprietary noggin clips, not just skew nailed!
Make sure the new flooring is 22mm thick T&G moisture resistant chipboard (Caberfloor TG4 MR P5 chipboard flooring boards 22mm x 2400 x 600mm)
Check to see if the boards are being laid the right way up too, with all T&G joints glued and boards screwed to the joists! No nailing, as this could crack the ceilings.
Finally once all the work has been done and you are happy, you should consider a claim for compensation from Redrow for inconvenience and lost holiday leave. They will say they don't pay compensation, but all house builders do! None of this was of your doing.
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NHE,
Thank you for this! Given that my builder is awfully difficult do you know where I would stand should they refuse my request.
I also want them to supply me with a list of materials (manufacturer and part numbers) they will use. Do you think that this is my right to know given they have had many opportunities to make things good in the past?
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I think it is perfectly acceptable that you should ask what materials they are intending to use.
Any trust you may have had with Redrow has long since vanished.
The last thing you want is to have taken a day off, moved your furniture and carpets and then the wrong specification flooring is delivered or the wrong size noggins! (these should be 47 x 50mm sawn timber by the way!)
Be prepared for a lot of dust! You could ask Redrow to ensure that the boards are cut using a saw with dust collection or the boards are cut outside (a problem if it's raining and it probably will be!) perhaps if you have a clear garage, the boards could be stored and cut in there to save the dust.
I would be amazed if Redrow refuse to co operate with your request regarding a detailed programme and a method statement of works.
You need this information to plan what you need to do!
As any refusal would be completely unreasonable and perhaps you should go through the NHBC, rather than Redrow regarding this!
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As a section of flooring is remaining at the room perimeters, this must be supported on a continuous noggin one way and on a full floor joist the other. As you have Steico TJI type joists the noggins should be supported on proprietary noggin clips, not just skew nailed!
Regarding this are you saying that the old board that remains must be sitting on these or just the new board that gets laid?
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The edge of the old board that remains and the edge of the new board both sit on the same noggin.
The noggin provides a fixing and support for both board edges as they will not have a tongue and groove.
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The edge of the old board that remains and the edge of the new board both sit on the same noggin.
The noggin provides a fixing and support for both board edges as they will not have a tongue and groove.
Right, I see what you mean.
I just wanted to make sure as I see a potential problem already.
I see from your picture of the proprietary clips and from what I recall when the floor was opened, the fixings to the joist is on each end of the 'fork'. I cannot see how these can be fitted underneath the old board without removing this first. Meaning that the noggin and clips cannot sit between the old and new board.
That leads me to believe that they will use some other method that probably wouldn't be according to manufacturer's specification. :-\
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I wouldn't be too concerned about this.
As long as the existing floor is lifted so the clip can go under it should be alright. As for manufacturer's instructions check this out: STEICO manufacturer's guide and details (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/STEICO-TJI-joist-guide.pdf).
Unfortunately, noggin clips are not mandatory as the pdf says:
"Minimum 38 x 38 perimeter noggin skew nailed or fixed to joist using proprietary clip. Noggin to be fixed 25 - 75 mm from face of wall"
The clips do make it easier and give a better job so I expect given the trouble this is, Redrow wont be skimping on a few relatively inexpensive clips!
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Fantastic thanks again!!
Since we are on the subject of floors and noises. I've been told on a few occasions that the if the noises are deemed excessive then the builder must sort it out regardless if its installed to specification or not.
Is there a section on the NHBC standards that specifically mention excessive noise?
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Noise insulation standards are covered by the building regulations and concern noise transmittance, that is normally noise from the room/flat above.
Creaking or cracking noises from the floor construction are always a result of NHBC standards and/or good practice not being followed somewhere.
Either that or the joist centres may be too wide for the joist and span involved, resulting in excessive deflection, often a source of floor creak.
It is also going to be difficult to determine what is "excessive" as it is a matter of opinon.
Generally, if you complain about this to the house builder within the first two years they should come out and, at the very least, 'try' to fix it.
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I took some photographs during the removal of the floors to capture some images of the joists.
From what I can see they appear to be damaged!!
When I questioned the carpenters they first said they would put some wood on the side of them but then claimed they are not damaged!! So they just the laid new flooring over them! The photos are a couple of examples from one of my rooms but also this kind of thing happened on my other room as well. Now I am a bit wary of allowing them to start any work in the other remaining rooms (they are due to do more work on Thursday!)
Do you think the damage will cause any problems and have I the right here to stop works for the time being even or better, request to have someone else do it or at the least seek further advisory on the extent of the damage?
What I don't want is obviously stopping them and as a result the NHBC not helping me any further as Redrow will have an excuse to say that I stopped work progressing (this is also one of the reasons why I allowed work to continue on the day).
Grateful for any advice or suggestions (as always)
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I am sorry to say that the damage to the joists could have severely weakened them.
All manufacturers of this type of joist forbid any removal, notching or drilling to the top or bottom timbers as these provide the integrity of the design. Only the web (vertical middle area) can be drilled or cut and then only within strict guidelines.
You can check this on the Steico pdf here: STEICO Joist guide pdf (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/STEICO-TJI-joist-guide.pdfLink.htm)
Any repairs must be done after the manufacturer has inspected the damage and any repair must be to manufacturer's recommendations. All carpenters and site managers would know this!
My advice now would be to immediately e mail these pictures of the damage to both the NHBC and whoever you are dealing with at Redrow homes.
In my opinion, some if not all of the affected joists may need to be replaced and by carrying on with the work they will only make a bad situation even worse.
You may like to send the pictures to Steico and ask their opinion as well!
The NHBC are providing a structural warranty for ten years and this damage is likely to result in a claim under the warranty, so I expect they will be eager to ensure Redrow do a proper job this time and not 'bodge' an unauthorised repair as the carpenters suggested to you!
By removing old floor boards that had been glued to the top of the joist, the damage was foreseeable.
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....just reading this
Taylor Wimpey's solution was to insert screws through the plasterboard ceiling across every ceiling on the ground floor. In one area they removed the flooring and it was clear that the noggins had shrunk and were poorly cut to size. Their excuse was that the house was built in very wet weather and everything has since shrunk.
On one floor the tradesmen were amazed at the amount of movement in the floor. One of them upstairs walking around with two downstairs underneath....open mouthed.
They pulled up the carpet upstairs and screwed down / glued the boards - there are still popping and creaking sounds but it is markedly improved.
Makes you wonder what state the rest of the noggins are in though!
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Adding yet more screws to the plasterboard will make no difference to the stiffening of the floor and deflection.
All it will do is make it less likely to crack and "pop" the finish at the fixings.
These floor joists should not overly deflect. In fact it is one of the selling features of this type of joist.
Over deflection is evidence that the manufacturer's design and detailing has not been strictly followed.
There are many details that must be adhered to and deflection is evidence of a failing in this respect.
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I'm a happy owner of a new 4 bed Charles Church home but had a similar issue with very creaky floors.
The builder's explanation was that the upstairs floor must have got wet before the house was watertight and as a result there has been excessive shrinkage between the I-Joists and the ceiling. There were nail pops to suggest that the ceiling was coming away from the I-Joists.
Walking upstairs caused very loud creaks that seemed to originate from the walls where the horizontal plaster board in the ceilings met the vertical plasterboard that was blobbed to the downstairs walls.
I thought this was going to be a major pain to fix but apparently it's quite common and resolved by screwing the ceiling plasterboard to the I-Joist from underneath. A few hundred screws later and a repainted ceiling and it's vastly better.
I mentioned this to my neighbour and he's having every ceiling downstairs done.
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Considering its a Persimmon new home I am not surprised they said the flooring had got wet during construction! Both the chipboard floor and especially the I joists should not get wet. Moisture resistant chipboard is not waterproof!
Nail pops (most house builders use screws these days to help stop "pops") are caused by the floor deflecting causing the filler over the nails to fall out. This would not be the cause of the floor squeaking!
What you have is the chipboard moving up and down on he nails causing a squeak. The cure, providing the I joists have been properly installed, is to screw the chipboard down to the joist and remove the nails.
Any chipboard that is deformed or mis shapen should be replaced as it will be weaker having got wet.
Adding more screws to the plasterboard ceiling will be unlikely to stop the floor squeaking.
I am amazed new home buyers are prepared to put up with this amount of work in their new home!
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There has now been an investigation by the University of Salford Acoustics Research Centre and it would appear the cause or origin of the cracking noises is at the junction of the wall drylining and underside of the floor structure. If a gap is made between the wall board and any dabs and the floor joists and ceiling boards the cracking noises are eliminated.
In a Joint statement (http://www.gpda.com/uploads/Joint_statement_on_cracking_sounds_from_ceilings.pdf) by the NHBC, GPDA and the Engineered Wood Product manufacturer’s in the UKTFA based on the research commissioned by the 3 organisations to find the location and root cause of the noise. The investigation was carried out by the University of Salford Acoustics Research Centre.
So Resilient Bar was not the answer after all.
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....just reading this
Taylor Wimpey's solution was to insert screws through the plasterboard ceiling across every ceiling on the ground floor. In one area they removed the flooring and it was clear that the noggins had shrunk and were poorly cut to size. Their excuse was that the house was built in very wet weather and everything has since shrunk.
On one floor the tradesmen were amazed at the amount of movement in the floor. One of them upstairs walking around with two downstairs underneath....open mouthed.
They pulled up the carpet upstairs and screwed down / glued the boards - there are still popping and creaking sounds but it is markedly improved.
Makes you wonder what state the rest of the noggins are in though!
I think I have this issue, but can't get them to look at it properly, who did you use for inspection?
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Just had my NHBC report back. The report states that the builder is to relay all the floors with new ones.
This is to be done by cutting out to approx 150mm of the room perimeter in All the bedrooms on the first floor and the landing too.
So my floors creak and the ceiling in the rooms below make a cracking noise as previously mentioned.
Below Bed 1 is the Lounge, Beds 2&3 is the kitchen/diner. Bed 4 is above the guest toilet and part of hallway and the landing is just over the hallway.
I have some concerns and want to seek opinion and advice. Basically there are 4 bedrooms in my house. The problems are in bed 1, 2 and 3 and subsequently the rooms below it. I actually don't have a problem with the landing or bedroom 4. But the NHBC have ordered for works to be done in those areas too.
I am in doubt if the landing and Bed 4 should be touched at all as I fear more problems maybe created! The old term "if it ain't broke don't fix" it springs to mind!
My dilemma is that if I ask for the work not to be done in these two areas and what they do in my other rooms doesn't fix the problems, I am worried that the NHBC will not address it further since I did not agree with what they suggested. However, as these two areas do not have any problems I don't see why it actually needs to be done there too.
Also as mentioned I didn't really get a say on what was going to happen, I was just basically told what is going to happen, in affect the report states as agreed works to be carried out etc etc.. Also bare in mind the builder is awkward and given that they have been instructed to do this they could very well refuse what I want since they like to make life difficult.
Would appreciate any advice or suggestions on what I should do about this and any potential problems or concerns I should take into consideration will be most welcome.
I hope its ok to resurrect an old thread but this is pertinent to a case I an working on. By NHBC requesting that a 150mm strip is cut out from the perimeter are they suggesting that the noise is a sound transference problem - ie travelling down the walls?
Was the remedial work successful?
In my case I came to a similar conclusion and thought maybe the problem was where the joist hangers were in contact with the Plasterboard "dabs" on the walls bellow. On further investigation and testing I am certain that the sound is coming from the centre of the room where there is most deflection. The flex is visible when an average size man walks above.
My floors are Steico I beam engineered design with varying centres, 22mm T&G particle board. 12.5mm plasterboard with no resilient bar.
I have had limited success by dampening the sound with acoustic rockwall batts laid between the joists but this is disguising the problem rather than resolving it.
I have emailed Travis Perkins EWP design people to invite them to a joint inspection. I will let you know what they think.
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First of all, name the housebuilder!
Your issues do sound like they are due to excessive deflection caused by too large a spacing centres of the joists a design mistake perhaps.
It has also been shown by research, that cracking noises are indeed caused by drylining on dabs to walls in contact with these TJI type joists.
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Hi, hopefully resurrecting this old thread will be ok...
I bought my Redrow home 18 months ago and have been dogged by the cracking sounds from the ceiling/floor structure since around 2 weeks into the ownership. Initial barrier was the absolutely appalling customer service which explains most of the reason it is still not sorted.
We have a 4 bed detached and the noise is happening in the living room (below bed 1) and kitchen diner (below bed 2, directly behind bed 1 (same joists). We don't seem to have it in the diner part of the kitchen/diner which is below the bathroom and bed 4.
Like others, the initial work was to screw the ceilings back in both rooms, hundreds and hundreds of screws and the initial result was positive. For a couple of weeks all was quiet, great! Then little pops/snaps appear, then more, then more, then its multiple loud cracks under every footstep again.
Recently we had the living room ceiling pulled down and refitted with resilient bars in between. I'd say that about 90% of the cracking sounds have gone but I'm not convinced it will stay that way. Now when someone walks above you can hear like a twist noise. Its hard to explain but I imagine that the joist movement is still there but now its fighting against the bars. I suspect the noise will return.
Kitchen/bed area needs attention and I'm wondering if there is any progress on this and what the correct repair should be. It seems quite clear Redrow Homes don't understand what the problem is. This thing that also surprises me is that they seem to be convinvced its the ceilings yet there's no visible cracking or nail pops or anything. If it was moving and causing the sound it must show signs of it??
In a previous post it suggests resilient parts are not the solution. For me it is not addressing the root cause. One thing we immediately noticed (and bought to Redrow's attention) was how springy the bedroom 1 floor seemed. When in bed and someone walks past it shakes. We had a little vase on top of a chest of drawers that would wobble when we walked past it... they dismissed this as normal.
The other question is whether I should get NHBC involved?
Redrow Homes are engaging the issue now but should I log it with NHBC anyway?
Thanks in advance.
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Please do log it with the NHBC.
Then read what is in this link which details what is causing the problem.
http://www.gpda.com/uploads/Joint_statement_on_cracking_sounds_from_ceilings.pdf (http://www.gpda.com/uploads/Joint_statement_on_cracking_sounds_from_ceilings.pdf)
The NHBC are aware of this so should be able to tell Redrow Homes what they have to do.
Resilient bar isn't the answer.
I would also question the deflection of your floor joints, if you notice it, it certainly isn't "normal" whatever any housebuilder tells you, which most of the time is an outright lie to avoid doing expensive extensive remedial works.
Make sure your joists aren't bodge stiffened like these!
The strength against deflection is in the web not the top or bottom flange so any extra timbers should have been full depth! Clearly no manufacturer would sanction this work.
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Thanks a lot for the reply.
The noise is awful but to my absolute amazement when the Constriction Director visited last week he said he would not be sanctioning any work in the kitchen as he felt what was done in the living room (resilient bars) had improved it to an acceptable level. He told us to contact the NHBC and he'd only do the work if they told him too. The arrogance is off the scale.
There's a number of issues with that. 1) He said all along he'd repair both ceilings 2) the kitchen is absolutely no different following work in the living room. 3) There's no technical reason why the living room work would affect the kitchen.
So today we'll contact NHBC to get them out.
What exactly is the repair for this? At the start of the this thread it was suggested that replacement of the floorboards. I know someone else who had the same issue and he had a combination of herringbone fixings to reduce joist deflection and extra screws in the plaster board.
Attached is a short snipped of the issue, when walking in the bedroom (bed 2) just above). Is there any scenario in this world where someone sane could listen to that and conclude its acceptable? I really wish there was a mechanism for house builders to be fined for frivolous referrals.
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What is needed is the statutory New Homes Ombudsman, but this government looks like it is giving control to the industry to crate their own voluntary new homes ombudsman - like that will work!
If you read the pdf what is required is the plasterboard and adhesive cut back below the floor joists.
In addition, stronger (deeper) joists or more joists fitted closer together, or existing joists properly stiffened to manufacturer's requirements may also be required.
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This shows the situation with the new ceiling partially installed.
Did you have a watch/listen to the video? What did you think. It seems worse than a lot that I’ve seen which makes it very surprising they think it’s acceptable.
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Sorry to add another question before the last one was answered, but its about upstairs partitioning/stud wall.
Before replacing the ceiling in the living room the builder suggested cutting the downward fixings from the wall into the floor that separates the upstairs 2 bedrooms that have the problem. They removed the skirting board and then with a hammer and bolster cut through the fixing by bashing under the lower stud beam against the floor. Not only did this not have any positive impact on the cracking noise , they managed to slice through the power supply of the plug socket that was staring them in the face.
Is it a building regulation that the partitioning wall be fixed down into the floor? Have they now made it non-compliant?
In terms of a stiffness/flexing root cause taking out these fixings will be reducing the rigidity of the upstairs structure and increase the likelihood of the cracking noise.
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You are dealing with idiots!
The stud wall partition needs to be fixed top and bottom otherwise it will move out of plumb.
So many bodges attempted to avoid doing the more expensive remedial works required such as I have suggested before.
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Would I be right in assuming that a proper solution to the problem looks something like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/b30cUR4h.jpg)
I found it on another forum and the poster confirmed that it resolved the same issue I have.
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Yes this would be a solution to stiffen joists spaced too far apart and/or not deep enough and greatly reduce the deflection in the middle third of the span. Done properly in conjunction with manufacturer's design and instructions - with glue and screws too.
It would be better if these I-joists were all mandated in warranty standards to be at 450mm centres and perhaps this would then mean no further issues like yours in new homes.
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Mine are actually 450mm spaced, I measured them when the ceiling was down.
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Then perhaps the joists have been weakened by cutting and drilling the flanges or holes in the web in the wrong place?
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Just reading through this as I've been put to task to resolve this issue in new build site I'm working on.
I'm the making good man for the plastering company and we are getting blamed for it!!!
From first time I looked into it I said screw down floorboards from above, they have not and instead asked me to add screws across the ceiling, made no difference. Then got me to cut away 150mm of ceiling right along the edge and 100mm of the dabbed wall along the length (no dabbing compound touching underside of joists as ceiling board stopped it)and has made no difference. They did get a chippy in and took up a small area of flooring and added a couple of X style noggings and still no difference.
Noise comes from centre of room, no screw pops and no joint cracks in ceiling so I'm going along with wet when installed and just shrunk when home heated up. One thing I did notice was one joist seemed around 640mm centre from others so could well be this one as in centre of where the noise is?
They want to rip ceiling out and install resilient bar and I'm saying if the noise is from above ceiling (ie floor boards) resi-bar won't fix it as said in this thread also. Joists are built into the wall.
Will post up if it gets resolved and I'm still thinking it's the joists moving
Eggy12
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It is almost certainly caused by too wide centres for the joist spacing, causing excessive deflection in the centre of the span (middle of the room)
NHBC requirements are 600mm maximum anyway but unless the joists are very deep, I would suggest 450mm centres is what was designed.
Try to get hold of the manufacturer's design drawings and check joist centres before ripping anything down or out!
There is no point in adding resi-bar to ceilings until all possible causes have been investigated.
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Joists move at ends around blockwork that's supposed to hold them, noggings easily moved/wriggled with hand. It's the glue cracking under pressure either from floorboards to joist or where joined on above and under I bit of joist. Get the same crack when pushed up from below mostly near wall end. Needs new noggings and glue, screw together in my opinion but I'm just the making good guy 😎
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Apologies for hijacking this thread!
I have a very similar issue where weeks after moving in I noticed the upstairs had creaking and knocking noises on both bedrooms and the landing. I reported this to Croudace Homes the developer and got fobbed off a few times saying its normal etc.
Croucdace then attempted to screw the floorboards down and this failed to resolve the issue so they looked at screwing from the ceiling downstairs which also failed to resolve this issues.
The next attempt they cut holes in the floorboards in the different rooms and they started to say the strongback wasn't fixed tight to the joist as you can see they did a really bad job on the floorboards and the hatch was just glued back.
NHBC have approved a schedule of works however both the Croudace Homes and NHBC are refusing to do the work and want me to find a contractor to carry out the repairs. My issue is here we don't know what the issue is and the first contractor has suggested the floorboards have been laid incorrectly in the same direction as the joists which is most likely causing the issue and would be very difficult to lift the floorboards and relay due to the stud walls being in place.
Sorry as you probably can tell I have very little knowledge on this so I'm struggling to find the best way forward!
Appreciate any help/advise.
Thanks
;)
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Go back to the NHBC and instruct them to appoint a contractor and carry out the works necessary and project manage it.
It is not down to the homeowner to be a project manager on behalf of a lazy NHBC!
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Thanks for your response I have called NHBC a couple of times and have been told that they can look to cash settle rather than repair.
I advised I want the repairs and they said I have no choice! Is this actually true?
Do you know if floorboards should be fitted the same direction as the joists?
If you listen around halfway through this video you will hear the knocking noise!
Have a lovely Christmas and New Year!
Thanks
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As been said do not manage the work yourself, you should be dealing with NHBC.
Noise from floors can not be totally eliminated, how loud is acceptable is subjective and can vary from one inspectors opinion to another. Finding the cause of the noise requires a methodical approach and experience.
In my own opinion the use of joist caps in construction we see less 'cracking noise '. In your case wedge a 4 x 2 under each ceiling joist in turn to try and eliminate the noise. Check walls for dabs touching, then a last resort would to cut the floor out and brace the joists with ply.
Your picture is a good example in an empty room this is a straightforward job and quick job .
Thanks
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Thanks for your message.
I have been pushing NHBC as the resolution report admits there is a fault however there are adamant they can choice to cash settle a claim rather than carry out the repairs themselves?
The cash settlement is just over £1,000 (I haven't accepted this) and they are asking me to get quotes/specialist report and they will then review if quotes come back more expensive (Attached is the schedule of works they believe may resolve this issue)
I will discuss your recommendations with some of the companies I get out to look at the issue and provide quotes.
It seems to be to be a along the whole floor in one straight line the knocking noise. I get a few noises close to the stand walls in certain areas as well which doesn't bother me that much compared to the knocking noises.
Thanks
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The flooring should span across the joists not along or parallel with the joists.
Yes the NHBC do often offer cash settlement rather than carry out works.
This means:
1) The NHBC can forget about the defect forever - no coming back with another claim down the line.
2) The homeowner can choose to get works carried out, or just put up with it.
But you do not have to accept it. Under the warranty the NHBC has to get or arrange to carry out necessary works to remediate defects in the home covered by the warranty. If they do not the financial Ombudsman Services will probably rule in your favour if you raise a complaint.
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It is with quite a bit of annoyance I’m back (see posts on previous pages).
Snapping cracking noises from the ceilings, and the master bedroom floor is very springy and bouncy).
First repair was screwing back the ceiling tight, worked perfectly initially for couple of weeks then the issues gradually came back to what it was.
Then they added couple of horizontal noggins, no impact at all.
Finally late last year they pulled ceilings down and put resilient bars up. I told them many times that the noise was being generated by the really springy and bouncy floor and they should look at addressing that. They didn’t, and now the resilient bars work is failing.
No idea why the floor bounces so much just walking on it. It’s like a caravan floor. We find if we have the heating on the is always 2 or 3 very loud pops/cracks as things expand.
We can now also see that the freshly installed and plastered ceilings has several straight creases in it where the resilient bars run.
We’re waiting for them to return to log this officially and no doubt another bin fight about fault and repairs.
Has anyone had any experience of this? The spacing seems to be 450mm so cant be that.
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I am in a simular position NHBC are offering about £2,300 to have noggins fixed across the centre of the joists to reduce flexing.
They have tried screwing the ceiling up and didn’t work for me then they tried cutting hatches in the floorboards to inspect which had only made the floorboards even worse.
I am wary of getting the noggins as I didn’t want to take the offer so I’m in the process of seeking legal advice!
Do you think it could actually be the joist failing ?
Cheers
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Hi
I am in a simular position NHBC are offering about £2300 to have noggins fixed across the centre of the joists to reduce flexing.
They have tried screwing the ceiling up and didn’t work for me then they tried cutting hatches in the floorboards to inspect which had only made the floorboards even worse.
I am wary of getting the noggins as I didn’t want to take the offer so I’m in the process of seeking legal advice!
Do you think it could actually be the joist failing ?
Cheers
Couple of things I’ve thought, either they got excessively wet during construction and softened, Or they are not the correct hardness of wood.
Either way, they need to be reinforced as they are bouncing, cracking and creasing my ceiling. I posted a picture on the previous page of the kind of thing that I think would work (sheets of hard wood either side of all joists). They’d need to take up the entire floor and then replace it very carefully. The original poster of it had the same issue and confirmed it cured it. As an engineer myself it seems logical.
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My other hypothesis is that the joists are hard up against the outer walls and maybe during settling the walls are pushing on the joist (like pushing on both ends of a ruler forcing the middle up).
I’d need an engineer from the builder to check that the interaction between the joist and the wall is to drawing.
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Would you suggest cutting the flooring round the walls as I was told to bring the whole flooring up they would need to knock the timber stud walls down and sounded like a demolition job!
My joists are the timber web joists!
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Yeah, I’d assume they’d have to cut just inside on the walls and lift from there.
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The housebuilders and more importantly the NHBC, should know what the cause is by now.
Why they continue to follow the bodge up they do, considering to cost to them and the destruction of people's homes when ceilings are taken down to fit resilient bar is a mystery.
It is that the new I-joists do indeed get wet during construction often too much! The Moisture resistant (not rain resistant) chipboard that is fixed to them early (primarily for safety often gets saturated and distorts.
But a springing floor means it is deflecting too much due to bad workmanship, not following manufacturer's recommendations or under specifying (Joist not strong enough or close enough for the spans involved).
Anyone affected should also read this. http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/Joint-statement-on-cracking-sounds-from-ceilings.pdf
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As suspected, the resilient bars haven’t done the trick. As suspected, they didn’t address the root cause which is deflection/bounce within the joists.
Within a couple of months the issue was starting to reappear and it’s crept back to what it was.
Nightmare.
I’m pretty fed up of my house being a building site, and having to fight the builders to put it right.
FOUR failed attempts to fix it. Not once addressing what we said when we first moved in was a problem, the bouncy floors.
I have been telling them it was creeping back and they acknowledged some noise but felt the level wasn’t enough to warrant work.
As we flagged it before our warranty expired I hope they consider it still covered.
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Hi Mate
I’ve just been through the same 2 years of fighting NHBC and the builder and they took
the ceilings down as they suspected micro cracking and resilient bars would resolve it.
When the ceilings were down it was clear the joists/floorboards where the problem as the noise was still present.
They tried to put ply either side of one joist to stop the flex and then said NHBC said to just do the resilient bars and they gave up.
Raised back with NHBC and they are now back tracking on the resolution report and saying the noise has improved.
Waiting for them to come back out!
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Hi Mate
I’ve just been through the same 2 years of fighting NHBC and the builder and they took
the ceilings down as they suspected micro cracking and resilient bars would resolve it.
When the ceilings were down it was clear the joists/floorboards where the problem as the noise was still present.
They tried to put ply either side of one joist to stop the flex and then said NHBC said to just do the resilient bars and they gave up.
Raised back with NHBC and they are now back tracking on the resolution report and saying the noise has improved.
Waiting for them to come back out!
This is the problem, not just the hassle of having your house smashed around, pushing passed all their rubbish.
I am tempted to just get someone in to do it how I want it and pay for it. I know they should be on the hook for it but they all frustrate me so much. They’ll also suggest some other crappy half arsed experimental repair that’ll fail after a week again.
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We are having the same issue in our 6 month old house, initially this work was done to one room which hasn't stopped the cracking noise from below:
Removed old flooring which had been glued and nailed to timber joists. Joists are at 400mm centres and have staggered noggins nailed in the centre of the span from wall to steel RSJ. Joist length is approx 4.1m
Re screwed noggins as a precaution with 100mm x 5’s.
New boards down and glued with egger D4 glue as per manufacturer instructions, the boards are also fixed with 75mm screws on every joist, 3 per joist.
Glued and screwed a noggin to the perimeter as needed.
Where the boards cross the steel used gripfill green so the boards are not directly on the steel.
The warranty holder Homeproof (was Aedis) have now backtracked and said the Developer doesn't have to do any remedial work as it not covered as 'Major Damage' in their policy so they and the Developer are not liable.
So if we have to do the work ourselves has anyone tried the NHBC fix as per the joint statement? How much does it cost per room and how long does it take in terms of disruption etc and had it worked? How do we find someone who knows what they are doing as well?
I know I am preaching to the converted about the scandal of the lack of protection for owners of new builds.
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Everything that a buyer reports to the housebuilder that is not fully remediated before the expiry of two years after legal completion, is still the builder's responsibility to deal with. If not the NHBC should take over.
Fitting plywood gussets to the side of the I joists would invalidate the Joist manufacturer's warranty, unless their engineers have designed it. You do not need to be a structural engineer to assess whether a bouncing (deflecting) floor is excessive and/or the cause of other reported defects. It beggars the question as to why housebuilders (often backed by warranty providers) still proceed with fitting resilient bar when this will not prevent deflection at all and is probably not much additional work to fit additional and strange joists at that time when the ceiling is down.
Yet they seem to prefer to "bodge" hoping the occupier of the home will not want any further mess and inconvenience!