New Home Owners And Snagging Forum
Advice on buying a brand new home => Snagging and defects => Topic started by: cmcc147 on April 07, 2019, 10:14:04 am
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I'm new to the forum. I'm from Northern Ireland and I have had a few issues with my new home and was hoping someone could shed some light on whether they should be covered under the builder's warranty. (We have been in the house less than 1 year)
On the whole I have been very happy with the standard of the home and most issues reported have been rectified quickly and efficiently by the builder. See below for the exception as well as a couple of issues I'm unsure of.
*Our wood burning stove had filled with water on a couple of occasions when the rain was extremely heavy. We asked the builder to replace the cowl for one which wouldn't let water in and he said its not something he would cover. It hasn't done this since this and we have had similar amounts of rainfall.
*Our main bedroom suffers from terribly creaky flooring, which translates in to crackling and noise in the living room below. The builder pulled the carpets and secured the flooring underneath with screws I presume which helped slightly but it is still very noisy. Is this something he has to resolve?
*Poor joinery. The solid oak doors fitted throughout the house suffer from issues catching frames and closing correctly. 4 Doors in total & a 'cubbyhole' are affected by either making a creaking noise catching the doorframe and also the catches don't work. (The door when fully closed can be pulled open without having to push the handle down.)
*Poor joinery #2. The woodwork in the house in terms of skirtings/door frames is in general not what I expected. I suspect these were quite damp when installed because the gaps in the frames are very large in some cases. I have attached a photograph for reference. Is this something we can reasonably expect the builder to get his decorator to resolve or is this something we should sort ourselves and will be put down to general shrinkage?
Thanks in advance for any input on the above
Chris
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First of all, you have serious shrinkage issues. All these cracks should be dealt with by the housebuilder.
Regarding the stove cowel, yes again, rain should not be able to come into the home. It might not have reoccurred purely because the wind has not been in the same direction or the builder may have done something.
As for the doors, it would appear these need re hanging and adjusting - again covered under the warranty.
The cracking sounds of the floor are more serious to fix. The lounge ceiling will need to come down.
Read this post on similar issues (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-builders-federation-policy-conference-2019) and this joint statement. (http://www.gpda.com/uploads/Joint_statement_on_cracking_sounds_from_ceilings.pdf)
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Thank you for your reply New Home Expert. You were right on the money as I made a call to NHBC just as an anonymous enquiry to see their stance on things and they viewed things the same as yourself.
They suggested anything over 3mm would be considered excessive shrinkage. I will have a look tonight and measure the gaps before getting in touch with the builder. The problem is that I have tidied some bits myself with caulk. Is it best to remove my amateur efforts and ask the builder to rectify the whole lot?
With regards to the flooring in the main bedroom. I'm guessing this would be a case of carpets up and room emptied from the bedroom despite coming in from below? Does this generally extend across the whole 2nd floor or can it just be confined to the one room and all other rooms have no problems?
Up until this point any issues with the builder have been resolved with a phone call or text but I feel from here on I may need to get an email contact address even though things have always been amicable.
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New Home Expert will say his three most important pieces of advice are as follows:
Other than "Never buy a new home".... if you decide there is one in a place you like that is a design you like and you are willing to put up with the problems that are going to come your way....
1) Never use the builders' recommended solicitor
2) Get the new home surveyed independently before completion.
3) Get everything in writing.
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New Home Expert will say his three most important pieces of advice are as follows:
Other than "Never buy a new home".... if you decide there is one in a place you like that is a design you like and you are willing to put up with the problems that are going to come your way....
1) Never use the builders' recommended solicitor
2) Get the new home surveyed independently before completion.
3) Get everything in writing.
Plenty of other good advice here too! (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/advice-when-buying-a-new-home.htm)
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cmcc147
The basic rule regarding cracks is if you can push in a 50p coin (builders like the thicker £1 coin) then they will fill it. Please don't take out your filling. It's done now and probably done better than the builder will do!
Re cracking sounds it will be the lounge ceiling that comes down or down around the edges.
You haven't read the information in the link I posted have you?
Who is the housebuilder?
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Thanks again. I have spoken to the builder (small independant outfit here in N.I) and he is sending the joiner out to sort the doors for us.
I asked about what more be can do about the creaking floors and he said there isn't much more he can do after screwing the floors down. Is the creaking noise which seems to be a common fault with new homes simply an annoying noise or can it translate in to something which may be unsafe/dangerous?
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Hi, excessive shrinkage is over 2mm on ceilings and walls & 4mm on stairs , so your builder should address this .
Creaking floors can be a number of issues ,most common is the metal stud walls ,sometimes this can be fixed in 10mins with a small wedge other times it can be more involved . It really depends on a number of factors , the type of noise , the construction and the experience of the contractor carry out the remedial works .
Regards Maxell
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Creaking squeaky floors is mostly annoying not structurally serious.
However, if the incorrect joists have been fitted or the centres are too wide, or joists have been notched or drilled incorrectly then it would be serious.
As long at when you stand in the middle of the room and bend you knees (bounce) and the flor does not noticeably deflect it will be just to annoyance.
Get good quality underlay and decent carpets. Perhaps your builder should pay for the underlay!
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Thanks again for your input on this matter. We have had the builder out out at the house today to take another look at the creaky flooring as well as sorting out the doors so hopefully that will be those issues sorted.
We did however have another issue arise which I'm hoping some of you have experience of or have seen before. If you look at the attached picture, the landing floor almost appears to have dropped slightly. Our builder has inspected it and said it is due to shrinkage of the floor but there is no structural issues and he would get the joiner to tidy it up. Does this sound correct?
This was something that I though was originally more serious particularly due to the cracked plaster directly beneath it.
Chris
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Looks like shrinkage to me.
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Thanks New Home Expert, that has put my mind at ease in regards to that.
I will get it filled and the builder said he will get the 'popped' plaster repaired for me since it is not just a simple hairline crack.
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I hope it's ok to attach videos. The video shows the sound made when walking and putting a bit of pressure on my bedroom floor. Is the creaking in the video an acceptable level that I should learn to live with? Apart from a couple of stairs there aren't any creaking noises on the rest of the 2nd level currently.
Chris
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The video has been deleted as it really doesn't serve a purpose.
It is up to you if you can live with the creaky noises.
There are other posts on this forum for this quite common problem.
The solution means taking down your ground floor ceilings!
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The video has been deleted as it really doesn't serve a purpose.
It is up to you if you can live with the creaky noises.
There are other posts on this forum for this quite common problem.
The solution means taking down your ground floor ceilings!
Apologies, I guess I was more so seeking reassurance that it was just a noise issue and nothing more. It's clearly in my head but when walking on the floor as it creaks it almost seems like there is movement, but if I walk about the room with my ears covered and blocking out the noise this is not the case and all feels stable. :-\
I am currently making a point of compiling a small list of issues that I would like the builder to take a look at it, particularly now we are in the final 10 months of our builders warranty. Are you happy enough for me to seek advice on this in this thread from yourself and others as I have done previously?
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Here are some posts on the forum about creaking floors. It is not in your head.
Feel free to post and ask questions but I do get a bit fed up having to answer the same issue over and over again, so please read these posts first:
http://forum.brand-newhomes.co.uk/snagging-and-defects/flooring-ceiling-creaking/msg4224/#msg4224
http://forum.brand-newhomes.co.uk/snagging-and-defects/creaky-and-cracking-upstair-floors/msg3902/#msg3902
http://forum.brand-newhomes.co.uk/snagging-and-defects/cracking-noises-and-creaking-floorboards/msg3468/#msg3468
http://forum.brand-newhomes.co.uk/snagging-and-defects/nhbc-standards-for-chipboard-floors-on-i-joists/msg1675/?topicseen#msg1675
And this is the cause: http://www.gpda.com/uploads/Joint_statement_on_cracking_sounds_from_ceilings.pdf
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Thanks very much for the above links, I have had a good read through them and this will be helpful when I next broach the subject with the developer. The other half is more of the view that she can live with the noise but this is mainly because she doesn't want the living room ceilings to be pulled down.
Below is a few photographs of things I am wanting to clarify if they may or may not be warranty issues and I hope you can help with this.
1) Woodburning stove included in the purchase of the property. It appears to be missing foam/insulation in the gaps where the backing has been fitted. Is this something I should be expected to make good myself?
(https://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/Beefy-Stilo/Screenshot_20190605-083047_Gallery_zpsafgypqcf.jpg) (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/Beefy-Stilo/media/Screenshot_20190605-083047_Gallery_zpsafgypqcf.jpg.html)
(https://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/Beefy-Stilo/Screenshot_20190605-083037_Gallery_zpspoglqtc6.jpg) (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/Beefy-Stilo/media/Screenshot_20190605-083037_Gallery_zpspoglqtc6.jpg.html)
2)The below shows pictures of the paved area in the back garden. Is the quality of the paving and the blocks that border the lawn area of an acceptable standard? The colour of the concrete slabs are not uniform and despite a pressure wash with what was a fairly weak detergent, the 'staining' on the slabs remains the same. Again I am unsure if this is something I would be being fussy over or whether it should be rectified. I couldn't find any info on the forum nor under NHBC guidelines
https://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/Beefy-Stilo/Screenshot_20190605-085202_Gallery_zps2lx8yawo.jpg[/img][/URL]
(https://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/Beefy-Stilo/Screenshot_20190605-085150_Gallery_zps7qjttjxv.jpg) (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/Beefy-Stilo/media/Screenshot_20190605-085150_Gallery_zps7qjttjxv.jpg.html)
3)This isn't so much a current issue but one that has been rectified somewhat we hope. We had issues with tiles cracking in the main upstairs bathroom and the master ensuite. These have been pictured below as well as the flooring that is below the tiles. (Left that way overnight before tiler returned the following day) The developer put this down to the wrong grout or adhesive being used as it wasn't flexible. What I found interesting was that the shape of the cracks in the tiles was consistent with the joins in the flooring. Particularly noticeable in the T Shaped crack in the ensuite.
https://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/Beefy-Stilo/Screenshot_20190605-082939_Gallery_zpswrf4zchy.jpg[/img][/URL]
(https://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/Beefy-Stilo/Screenshot_20190605-082756_Gallery_zpshcpksq0t.jpg) (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/Beefy-Stilo/media/Screenshot_20190605-082756_Gallery_zpshcpksq0t.jpg.html)
(https://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/Beefy-Stilo/Screenshot_20190605-083006_Gallery_zpswsv5vgrl.jpg) (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/Beefy-Stilo/media/Screenshot_20190605-083006_Gallery_zpswsv5vgrl.jpg.html)
(http://s302.photobucket.com/user/Beefy-Stilo/media/Screenshot_20190605-082821_Gallery_zpskay2dsfy.jpg.html)
Given that this is the only photo I have of the flooring in the bathrooms, can you tell if they are the correct spec by looking at them? The tiles have been fine since being replaced approx 4/5 months ago.
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1) The ceiling part of the woodburner is not finished at all. There are gaps at the corners which shouldn't be there. not sure what this is or what if done properly it would look like but seen enough to know it isn't right and not acceptable.
2) Paving isn't that bad. The staining is probably cement so could be cleaned off with brick acid cleaner. (NB this will kill the grass at the edge during rinsing)
3)Unless they covered the chipboard with a special plywood (which I doubt0 the ceramic tiles will crack again.
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Thank you New Home Expert.
I will ask the developer to speak to the company who installed the wood burner and fire surround and ask to have it finished correctly. It looks like it has been measured incorrectly. Particularly as it is noticeable from a seated position. Looking at pictures from their website online, ours is of a lesser quality than similar installs.
Is it a case that these floors HAVE to be covered with this plywood or should be? This may sound daft but is it possible this would be on the underside of the chipboard? I know for a fact that the tiler only relayed the cracked tiles so there has been no plywood installed retrospectively. Just trying to gather the information before I ask him to rectify this if he has in fact cut corners on these bathroom floors.
Regarding the paving, someone had previously mentioned it may be a combination of efflorescence and some cement. In this case i'm happy enough to sort this myself over the coming months.
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The plywood should be on top of the chipboard, with tiles glued to the plywood.
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I had spoken to NHBC on Friday off the record just requesting information on the subject before I broach the subject with the developer. The girl I spoke to advised that it is only a recommendation to use the plywood and it doesn't need to be used and if they aren't currently cracked then there is no issue.
She did mention that if the problem has been sorted by the builder withing the two year period (like both my bathrooms have) then the builder has an ongoing liability to repair them if the cracks reappear. (even 3/4 years down the line or they step in) She said that this is provided I have evidence that the builder has been notified and carried out the works. I told her my only communication on the subject was reporting through text message and photos and she said that time stamped text messages are perfectly acceptable. Is this correct?
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First of all plywood below ceramic tiles on a timber chipboard floor is standard best practice.
True the NHBC may only recommend it and most of their standards are deemed by the NHBC top be "guidance" on how to comply with the Technical Requirements.
It is true, that if a housebuilder carries out remedial works that subsequently fail after the 2-yaer period, they are still on the hook for responsibility to repair. In most cases it is the warranty provider that will (or has to step in).
I always advise that every communication with housebuilders be IN WRITING. This includes e mails.
I am not sure about texts. They will need to be copied to a PC and/or on paper. It may be possible to later allege that the date has been altered. In any event, I doubt many would still have a text on their phones after 3 or 4 years or even that phone!
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Over the last day or two I carried out a test (recording room below while I walk upstairs) to see how much of an issue our flooring is and have come to the decision is isn't something I can live with. The creaking floors runs not just from the master bedroom but also in to the landing and stairs (although not as bad) The crackling/cracking ceilings on the ground floor are apparent in the lounge (below master) and transferring to the kitchen which I was unaware of before yesterday (no creaking from above in 2nd bedroom)
I am wondering what the best way to put the solution to the builder would be when he comes back with the inevitable "there is nothing more I can do" I have read the acoustics study but am having trouble understanding what needs done in laymens terms to rectify the issue. I will send him a copy of the study as well although the builder probably has come across and rectified such issues before.
Ceilings down
Create a gap between the ceiling boards and the wall (saw??)
Remove the adhesive dabs between the wall lining and the floor above the joists??
Would I be right in thinking that the above works if correct would be a solution to both the crackling ceilings and creaking floors above due to coming from the same source?
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You are correct.
http://www.gpda.com/uploads/Joint_statement_on_cracking_sounds_from_ceilings.pdf
In addition - This needs checking:
The span of the joists and depth of the joists.
That the manufacturer's details for joist have been followed.
That the flooring is properly fixed down with screws.
There is no pipework which might be making sounds.
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That's great thank you, I just want to have as much information to hand as possible so I'm not fobbed off as it needs sorted.
Would the creaking in the stairs be slightly different to resolve or again from underneath? This really isn't as noisy in terms of creaking and theres no crackling from underneath.
With a view to crossing T's and dotting I's the only other 'issue' of concern for me would be the fact that the ceramic tiles appear to have been laid on chipboard only and not marine plywood layer in between. (As seen in photos earlier in the thread) If I raise this with the builder, is it likely he can say that they are fit for purpose as they are currently due to the fact that they aren't currently cracked and it appears to be only 'standard best practice' to use the marine ply.
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Some noise from floors is acceptable however how much is subjective.
Pull back the carpets you should see the line of the joists from fixings, put your weight on and off the joists, you should identify the problem areas. The type of noise will help identify, high pitched = metal, wood on wood, clunking etc.
You may need to cut a hole in floor to inspect, joists sizes, hangers, straps, studwork, pockets or boards flying over joists, you can also feel any dabs from room below.
There is no single solution your contractor should try and work in a logical progression looking at the simplest and least invasive methods.
Your tiles should have a ply subfloor or an islolator membrane.
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I will update with proposed solution when I get speaking to him.
Looking at the photo attached I am guessing I do not have the ply subfloor and isolator membrane? The picture is of a tile that has been replaced in the past due to cracking.
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Would it be completely unheard of to have our home snagged now? (8 months left of builders warranty) This would be with the view to saying to the builder, here is what should be a final definitive list of issues with our home and ask them to be sorted.
I do understand that some things could be disputed saying they have been caused by the occupants but on the other hand it may identify things we haven't picked up on that may not be of a high enough standard.
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Yes you can have your home snagged anytime within your 2 year period. I would go wth the one recommend on here. They are not all the same.
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Are 'nail pops' in plasterboard ceilings generally something you would be expected to make good yourself? I have these in various rooms throughout the house some barely noticable and others which which would be larger with the plaster completely popped.
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1) Nail pops are a defect and should be sorted by the housebuilder.
2) Yes get your house snagged and inspected before the 2 year period is up.
3) Yes ceramic tiles must be laid of marine ply. If they are not you get what you have cracked tiles and grout.
4) It should not be you cutting holes and inspecting joist to find the cause of the problem if should be the housebuilder or NHBC. If you do this you may find they allege you caused the problem.
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I am in the process of trying to find someone reputable in Northern Ireland to carry out a snagging inspection. I don't suppose you could recommend anyone? It would be great if I could find someone like the company recommended on here that follows up with a service of aftercare and issues a copy of the survey to the builder as well.
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The screw pops need to be an excessive number, I would say more than 10 in a room.
The filler needs to be removed and the screw tweaked up before refilling.
If the scews are not tight to the boards this will also cause creaking of the floor above .
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Been trawling these forums looking through common issues and seeing if any of them relate to me. One which caught my eye was the issue of weak mortar as it is obviously quite worrying and seems widespread.
The finish of my property on the exterior seems to be of a high standard with no cracks or mortar chipping etc. I took a sharp key and twisted with a lot of pressure in a discreet area and was able to get it in approx 11mm before it would not penetrate any more. Is this acceptable?
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Time will tell. It would probably be deemed acceptable by the NHBC and housebuilders though!
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Time will tell. It would probably be deemed acceptable by the NHBC and housebuilders though!
The area I originally tested this as above was at the back of the garage It is a double garage detached from the house but shared with neighbours (wall separating between).
The mortar on the actual house itself was barely able to be penetrated at all using the same test on 5 different areas (high and low) so that was reassuring.....I think.
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I finally got round to getting my house snagged over the weekend just passed. It seems to have been a worthwhile as it has identified numerous issues which I can hopefully now have resolved over the next 8 months before my builder's warranty runs out. There were 105 snags identified. I took a bit of time and split these in to categories which I have listed below in to sub-sections to hopefully make it easier for the builder to strategically work through.
There were numerous issues identified in the report which were recurring hence the high number of 105 and also a few minor ones which I have been able to rectify myself so these are not listed below.
Could you advise if the below list is one I could reasonably expect my builder to completely fulfil?
I am awaiting the printed report to be sent to me then I will be approaching the builder to get a plan put together. I have attached a few photos for reference of some of the key issues.
Builder to do:
Bonded bead insulation in gulleys - remove this and inspect all gulleys
Rain water pipe at back gate entrance - re-centre not in middle of gulley
Rear soil pipe clip only partially fixed - only has 1 screw fixing of 3
Rear outside tap - missing fixing
Drainage inspection chambers x 3 all missing screws to secure
Garage door - missing fixings x 1 at each side
Garage window sill running off level
Internal garage wall tie down not properly secured to wall at top
Downstairs WC sink white waste pipe is leaking. (when sink filled and drained bubbles appear at join)
Kitchen extractor fan hose - gap where hose enters wall needs filled (can see daylight)
Finial at peak of garage needs centred
Main bathroom extractor is venting to the loft and not exiting the house
Water ingress to master bedroom - to be investigated (recessed joints couple with bonded bead cavity insulation??)
Loft Insulation:
At wind bracing/binders this is only complete in single layer (should be double)
Incomplete insulation out to eaves also
Gap in second layer - daylight visible and other areas with no insulation laid
Floors/Floorboards:
Creaking floors in main bedroom, landing and rear bedroom (translating to crackling ceilings)
Needs investigation - should not creak
Stairs creaking when walked on
Sealing/Pointing:
Seal around external sink waste (where this enters the brickwork)
Seal around boiler external blow off pipe (where this enters the brickwork)
Seal around waste pipe at rear to left beside patio doors (where this enters the brickwork)
Gaps inside garage pointing - back wall, large area at back left.
Living room window sill - pointing crumbling left hand side
Joiner:
All internal door handles not properly secured - no through bolts used and various handles coming loose
All internal doors to be checked that they close without catching door frames and they are latching fine.
Check all internal doors are not rattling when latched
Kitchen door hall side - excessive gap when closed (warped??)
Architraves cut short x 2 (need replaced/painted) Downstairs WC and inner kitchen door
Window cill board in living room not secure - can be moved up/down easily
Rear bedroom cill board - off level by 9mm
Master bedroom cill board - off level
Painter:
Poor/bubbling paint finish kitchen back wall near heating controls
Dowells at newell posts top and bottom of stairs need rubbed down repainted - untidy/rough
Kitchen Supplier :
Kitchen Cupboard doors fouling despite being adjusted fully (corner cupboard to lower left of sink)
Edge of laminate worktop at patio doors coming away (needs 'ironed' or reglued)
Tiler:
Chipped tile at top of main bathroom shower unit - has been filled with grout to mask this issue
Fireplace/Stove:
Woodburner setup unfinished to chimney ceiling and large gaps leaving it untidy.
Questions:
Inspect weep vents above windows - are these the correct way round for traditional masonry build? (fitted as is standard for timber frame house)
Base of outside window frame - should this gap be sealed with silicone at the bottom as it is on the garage?
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I have attached a photograph of one of the 'issues' found in the list above.
1) The windows on the house have silicone round the sides of frames but not at the bottom. The garage window does have sealant around the bottom of the window frame. Should this be sealed? The surveyor mentioned there may be a bed of mastic in behind reducing the need for sealant but he couldn't be sure.
This picture also shows the bonded bead cavity wall insulation in my gulley.
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The housebuilder should do all the snags on the snaglist.
The bottom of the window should be sealed but the window is too far forward or cill too far back as cill upstand is flush with front of window making sealant difficult.
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Bit of an update....
I am now well outside the two year warranty and managed to get most of the issues sorted out with the property. Looking back it was money well spent on the snagging survey which allowed me to get a lot of the issues sorted while the builder was still required to do so.
I did however have to report the creaking flooring issues in the master bedroom and 'crackling' ceilings below the master and back bedroom to NHBC. After a resolution meeting they ordered the builder to sort the master bedroom.
Fast forward to today and the floor has been sorted (replaced) in the master bedroom with negligible/acceptable noise from above. However there is still the crackling noise beneath both rooms when someone is walking in the room above.
Have there been any developments in sorting this micro cracking issue and am I likely to be facing a losing battle requesting the builder or NHBC to come back and sort this? The man sent out to the resolution meeting deemed the master unacceptable and the back bedroom as acceptable due to noise only being heard from below.
Chris
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On a related note. Do the gaps in the photos attached look normal? The carpet was due to be refitted tomorrow so could be pulled back easily and upon doing so I noticed the large gaps beneath the skirting. This is evident in most of the walls around the perimeter of the room and I dont recall it being like this before the works carried out to replace the floor.
They have also actually attached the carpet gripper rods the wrong way round. 🤦♂️
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First of all the gripper rods should have the nails leaning towards the wall and these do look the wrong way around.
Regarding the cracking noise to ceilings, it is better if the floor and skirting are isolated as they are so the floor is able to move without creaking by being restrained. It also gives room for the floor to swell if it ever got damp/wet.
The cause and "cure" to cracking ceilings is detailed in this link.
JOINT STATEMENT (http://www.brand-newhomes.co.uk/Joint-statement-on-cracking-sounds-from-ceilings.pdf)
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Thanks for the reply New Home Expert.
I was worried as it looked like the builder may have bodged something as I didn't recall being able to see pipes in this area as you can in the photos attached. You have put my mind at ease though if it's not something you deem to be a problem. I know this wont be visible when gripper rods are fixed and carpet fitted properly which is something i'll be asking the builder to reimburse me for.
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Has anyone any experience with this suggested cure below for the microcracking (cracking ceilings) issue that seems so common now?
https://www.cura-home-care.co.uk/portfolio-item/micro-cracking/
As I mentioned before I had the flooring lifted and relayed in my master bedroom in November and it has sorted the noise from above to be an acceptable level.
The cracking noise from the ceilings still remains in the kitchen and lounge when someone is walking above. If the ceilings are pressed from below firmly the noise can be recreated so the issue I am facing is 100% the microcracking of the plasterboard ceilings.
The cracking ceilings in these two rooms were reported inside the two years and the issue still remains now I am outside that period. I wonder whether they will fob me off and say this noise is acceptable given that the noise from above is no longer as much of an issue.
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This in my opinion, is just another quick fix that will not cure the problem, probably just a couple of carpenters who have found a niche to earn a bit of money.
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You could be right and at £850 plus VAT per room it would need to provide a permanent solution.
I have now been back in touch with the inspector that attended the resolution meeting and explained that although sound levels from above are acceptable, the microcracking noise is still present from the plasterboard ceilings beneath. I explained that it is something I can't accept and since it was reported within the two years in writing that I think it should be fixed. I know it is the ceilings as I can even recreate the noise by pressing the ceilings upwards or if I open a closed door quickly, the pressure change in the room must cause the ceilings to 'microcrack' as this creates the noise also
He is going to come back to me today/tomorrow about whether he can call out for a visit again with current restrictions. He acknowledged that they do deal with this in large numbers throughout the UK but not so much here in Northern Ireland.
The solutions they usually employ is that of the resilient bars or cuts around the perimeter of the affected room and removal of the adhesive where it shouldn't be. Would you have a personal preference out of these two options NHE? I presume each have their pros and cons and varying success rates.
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If the builder carries out this work they will cut the perimeter first to see if this reduces it . The resiliant bars will be their last option. The level of noise that is acceptable is subjective and will be the inspectors opinion.
Maxell
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Thanks for the reply Maxell. I guess they will always go down the path of least resistance. Still awaiting word from the inspector ref the microcracking so will hopefully get this sorted out.
There are 2 other things I was hoping for advice on below:
Picture 1 and 2 show the chimney surround that runs up the side of the house. I noticed what looked to be a white residue forming all of a sudden below one of the weep vents. Is this a non issue or something to be concerned about? I should note a period of heavy rain and freezing temperatures occurred around the same time.
Picture 3 was an issue raised in my snagging report in which the builder checked out said all was fine (as you would expect) Is there any way to check out if there is a problem here? Is it possible for firestopping to be present and not be felt?
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The solutions they usually employ is that of the resilient bars or cuts around the perimeter of the affected room and removal of the adhesive where it shouldn't be. Would you have a personal preference out of these two options NHE? I presume each have their pros and cons and varying success rates.
Resilient bars mean the whole ceiling will need to come down.
Cutting th ceiling around the perimeter of the rooms affected and isolating the wall board and adhesive from the ceiling board and floor joists should solve it. However, I assume the floor joist are the correct six for the pans and that they and the flooring have been properly installed to all manufacturer's instructions.
The white "stain" on your chimney is nothing to worry about. It is caused by salts in the brick being leached out by saturation in rain and then drying out. They will wash off in rain and end eventually.
Re firestopping, there should be mineral wall between the felt and the roof tiles. There should also be visible mineral wool firestopping on top of the party wall gables.
Perhaps you should have your home professionally inspected and snagged if for no other reason than to give you peace of mind?
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Thanks, if they come out and offer to remedy the issue, I will ensure to mention that the adhesive is likely touching in these places also and that the to do the job right these will BOTH need to be isoated. The joist spans are at 400mm centres so that shouldn't be an issue provided as you say it has been fitted correctly.
How would you practically go about removing any adhesive that may have spread up and bridged that gap between the wall board and joists? Would that involve a horizontal cut and would that mean a larger section of board around the perimeter needs removed for access? Sorry if im being stupid but I can't picture how to achieve this.
The firestopping was raised during my professional snagging inspection but I believe he said he couldn't feel it but didn't mean it wasn't present. I am guessing there is no way to tell other than making a cut in the felt? Would that then compromise the integrity of the firestopping?
Thanks for your help!
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The outer walls have boards stuck with adhesive. When the boards are pressed into the wall the adhesive can squeeze onto the joists /ceiling boards making a connection. As you say the joists are at 400m centres then by moving weight from one joist to another you maybe able to isolate the problem joist.
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Ok, I can understand that and again I'm sorry if I'm being stupid but I'm just trying to educate myself on the solution to ensure I get the best result.
When talking about a cut around the perimeter to separate the wall board from the ceiling, I'm now assuming this a horizontal cut which runs parallel to the ceiling boards and essentially cutting through where the wall board meets the ceiling board going towards the blockwork? (As opposed to a vertical cut up parallel with the wall board and through the ceiling board)
I do notice that the worst of the noise, both from above and below does seem to be around the perimeter of each room whether it be a stud or block wall so it does point to adhesive having crept up in there.
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A proper job would be to cut the wall board 25mm below ceiling board and hack off all the visible adhesive left.
Then fit coving to coving the gaps.
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Bit of an update, although not a positive one for now.
I had a 2nd resolution meeting with the NHBC ref the 3 issues below:
*Microcracking ceiling noises in rooms below master and back bedroom
*Line of cracking grout in tiles in master ensuite (same position as previously repaired by the builder)
*New intermittent metallic noise in hallway adjacent to the master floor that originally had the works carried out.
The inspector got back to me and said that although he acknowledged there was noise from the plasterboard ceilings, he would not be asking the builder to carry out works due to this being a new issue and not the original issue he was called to inspect and that he was it was only creaking floors that were reported.
(I have email and text message correspondence with the builder clearly asking him to resolve the crackling ceilings as well as the creaking floors within my 2-year warranty period. I have replied with proof of this)
I also have text messages proving that I asked him to repair the ensuite tiles within my 2-year period and photos of the original tile defect which show cracking grout along the same lines as current cracking....I have suggested to them that this is due to movement in the floor due to the tiles being laid directly on to chipboard and that this is not recommended in their guidance.
Reference the 3rd issue, I fear I may be fighting a losing battle. This noise is intermittent and did not occur during the site visit but does occur every day in the same area. This was not an issue before the works were carried out on the adjacent master bedroom floor but I don't believe their is any way of proving this.
What are my chances of a resolution here? I am thinking it is positive that he has acknowledged the microcracking but trying to fob me off saying it is a new issue while not knowing that I have proof of correspondence during my warranty period.
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I'm afraid this demonstrates just how worthless the NHBC warranty really is.
It is crystal clear the issues you mention are defects.
It is also clear that there is every chance they have arisen due to the warranty standards and good practice not being followed.
You need to write a letter to the NHBC claims department telling them that unless this is re inspected by a senior NHBC inspector, you will be making a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Services.
I would also advise you contact a snagging inspector to make a report on these defects for you and be in attendance when/if the NHBC next visit your home.
If the statutory New Homes Ombudsman actually existed either the home would not have had these defects or the builder would have fixed them without any delay or argument.
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I have to say given that this is the only instance I have had to deal with them, they don't seem to be much use at all.
I have since had a reply from the general claims email after I provided the photographs/texts/email etc saying that they are reviewing this and will come back to me with how they are going to proceed. I would have thought that now I have proven correspondence during the builder's warranty period for both issues, as well as acknowledgement of the issues from the NHBC inspector in writing, that this would be black and white but we will see.
They may still come back to me with the same decision in which case I will take your advice and ask my previously appointed snagging inspector to come and investigate these individual issues and ask him to act as an expert witness as I know it is a service he provides.
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A minor bit of success in that the NHBC have updated their decision and advised that after reviewing my emails etc they are advising the builder to fix the microcracking which is present in the kitchen and living room area.
They never mentioned in the updated report, anything about the cracking grout in the ensuite or the noise in the hallway (I expected this latter issue to be brushed off)
I'm guessing I have grounds to press a bit harder and have them acknowledge this tiling/grout issue also? It's terrible that I almost don't want to feel like I am 'pushing my luck'
New Home Expert, I'm not sure if you are aware of this but the inspector said that in Northern Ireland masonry properties are built slightly differently to the UK. He said that internal walls in homes in NI are all plastered/skimmed over and are solid as opposed to having plasterboard dot and dabbed and fixed to the walls. I am presuming this means that the works will have to incorporate a horizontal cut to separate the wall from the ceiling boards and release that tension?
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I would be very surprised if a house builder was bonding & skimming walls.
Noises to ceilings and floors are often generalised, the report from the NHBC concerns a very specific noise. Noises can be clunk's, squeaks, metallic both high pitched and lower, popping ,cracking and micro cracking.
Each of these noises indicate a different fault. Then you look at isolating the noise to an area or joists.
Knowing the construction details of joists, trimmers, steels, noggins etc you make a "guess" as to what the problem is and how to fix it.
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The inspector did say that all walls in the areas affected are skimmed masonry walls as opposed to plasterboard and that only my stud walls will be made up of plasterboard.
He also said that the noise is consistent with microcracking cases that he has dealt with so has advised the builder to carry out remedial works based on that diagnosis. Surely this means a horizontal cut is required in this case around the perimeter between the wall and ceiling board doesn't it? As I imagine the ceiling boards are tightly butted up to the solid skimmed wall?
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The ceiling boards are put up first. I don't think cutting the perimeter will solve the issue.
If the inspector is familiar with microcracking and knows the construction of the property he will know what needs to be done.
I would guess resilient bars and a new ceiling or they may take up the floor and batten and brace the joists.
I would email the builder and ask for their plan of work.
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Unless the builder/NHBC give you a programme of works for each defect and their reasoning, you could end up putting up with lots of "muck and bullets" (aka inconvenience) and even then it may not even solve the issue(s)
At least now there is a recognition of an issue. Pity they intend to ignore the cracked tiled floor properly at the same time.
You are not pushing your luck. It is your home and it is defective and they or NHBC have an obligation to do the works properly.