New Home Owners And Snagging Forum
Advice on buying a brand new home => Snagging and defects => Topic started by: PSE on May 09, 2016, 02:46:05 am
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We have noticed our ground floor bay windows (three sided) with a GRP canopy on the top don't seem very well fitted.
On the bay window UPVC frame where the two sides joins the brickwork is setback from the brickwork by approx 65mm but when we've checked other bay windows on the development where the UPVC frames join the brickwork they seem to be flush. Also where the GRP canopy fits to the wall its left a triangle piece where the window frame is set back that has had two triangle pieces of UPVC added on to cover the gap (please see attached photos). Also they used UPVC packing pieces on the sides of the framework to fill the gaps either side.
We also keep getting cracking internally at the window/wall junction that has been repaired on at least two occasions but comes back in exactly the same places. The window installer returned and tried to screw 120mm screws from the framework to the brickwork in a hope to rectify this but due to the large gap and angle none of the three screws used actually hit the brickwork.
In my opinion the bay windows have not been constructed correctly and then they've bodged it to try to make it look good. I should also add that the rooms with the bay windows seemed cold last winter and this could be related to the windows.
Any help and advice will be gratefully received.
Thank you.
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Yes this looks a bit of a lash up to me and Bellway Homes should be ashamed!
As the bay is not square with the brickwork, a cut brick or "squint" is required so the window can sit flat on the brick reveal.
Judging by the triangular pieces added to the soffit, it shows a lack of care used to build your home.
The internal cracks may be caused by high winds slightly lifting the GRP canopy.
The best solution would be to tape and joint over the cracks.
As for bay window rooms being cold, it is probable that insulation was left out of the bay roof space, or bay cill or both.
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Thank you for your advice.
In your opinion, what would the builder need to do to make these good?? Would it be to add the cut bricks as you've stated or is it too late now for them or will they just try to bodge it again?
Thank you once again.
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It is never too late! No one has died But I expect they will "Try to bodge it again"
I doubt Bellway will get the bricks cut, arrange a bricklayer to cut out the old ones and fit the correct bricks, then send someone else out to re fix the window and re mastic and clear away all the rubble.
Even if they did, the mortar probably wouldn't match.
The ceiling would have to come down to fit insulation and the cill and then fit a new soffit that is cut correctly.
You could ask Bellway CEO, Ted Ayers if he would accept what you have in his house.
Show him my photo of how it should have been done!
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Thank you for your reply again.
I did email NHBC Technical Services regarding this and this was the reply I got:
"The BS 8213 is the code of practice for the survey and installation of windows and door sets, the manufacturer will likely refer to this standard in their documentation for fitters but it does not fall under NHBC Standards.
In terms of where the frame should be positioned, this is covered by the Building Regulations for cold bridging, the frame should sit over the cavity closer by a minimum 30mm As detailed in the accredited details on the planning portal website - www.planningportal.gov.uk/.
We are unable to comment on whether any repairs would be required and if you believe the installation of the windows to be defective, you should discuss matters with NHBC Claims on 0800 035 6422 or by email at claims@nhbc.co.uk who will confirm how NHBC can assist you under the terms and conditions of the NHBC Buildmark warranty."
Thanks again.
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From what I can see in the NHBC Standards, British Standards and Codes of Practice can be deemed to meet NHBC Standards requirements. It follows that any non compliance with a British Standard would mean it does not meet NHBC Standards and as such a claim is valid.
I must say that I find the NHBC's response dismissive. Such an attitude does their reputation no favours.
I would suggest you contact the NHBC and make an official claim under your new home warranty.
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Thank you for your reply.
I have already put a claim in with the NHBC yesterday and awaiting a response.
Thanks again.
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This bay window "birds mouth" detail went out of favour about 10 years ago. I can't believe that this is still on the architects drawing?
Percy.
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Thank you for your advice and comments.
Just to update you after I have viewed our bay windows and other bay windows from identical plots in detail I am sure both our bay windows have been built/set out wrong? (please see attached pdf files)
Based on the bay window in the pdf file from our plot if you count the bricks from the corner of the elevation to corner of the brick bay below sill height the count is 3.5 and on identical plots and elevations the count is also 3.5 bricks. If you count the bricks from the corner of the elevation up to the UPVC window from above sill height on our plot and on the same elevation the count is also 3.5 bricks but on other plots the count is 4 bricks on exactly the same elevation. Also if you look at where the angle of the stone sill starts in relation to the brickwork above the stone sill on our plot the brickwork is approximately 0.5 bricks short of where the angle starts but on other plots the brickwork goes up to where the angle starts.
Based on these facts what would the builder need to do to make this correct and not bodge it (again).
Any advice or help will be gratefully received.
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It would explain why you have a large filler piece of plastic from the window to the brickwork, to hide a gap where the missing half brick would/should be.
It would be better to comment on what Bellway Homes now propose to do (if anything)
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Thank you for your reply.
Originally the builder was going to replace the windows but since I've noticed the mistake I don't actually know yet.
I also asked about the cut bricks but were told they would show me the drawing to prove not. (not seen it yet though)
I'll update when they visit next week.
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Just to update you.
Bellway Homes were due to visit today regarding the issue with the bay windows but cancelled yesterday due to having a meeting with the Construction Director with regards to all our outstanding issues. They also said they would either email or write to me with the outcome from the meeting. I found this a little strange as normally they just email?
I called them today, as the suspense was killing me and they stated with regards to the bay windows that they would not be making the bays windows good to drawing (like everyone else's except one other that's been built incorrect like ours). I asked what they proposed to do and their answer was to leave everything as it is but additionally to UPVC clad the soffit and scribe in the two triangles and then to clad the upstand part up to GRP roof part.
I stated that I will not be accepting this as it is just another bodge job and if we ever need to change the windows in years to come the cladding would probably need to be removed.
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You are right to not accept Bellway's "proposals"
It is also disgusting that, having said they will write to you (e mail or letter) it was you that needed to call them to find out what the outcome of their "meeting" was.
I agree with you, this "proposal" is just another bodge job to cover over their even worse "workmanship".
Furthermore, you have a contractual right to have your home built and to look like the working drawings.
I would escalate this to the NHBC. And to CEO Ted Ayres.
It would certainly be one for the New Homes Ombudsman (http://www.new-home-blog.co.uk/new-homes-ombudsman-should-be-set-up-an-appg-inquiry-recommendation/) when or if it is set up by government.
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Thank you for your advice and comments.
Email just sent to Mr Ayres.
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Just to update you.
After emailing Ted Ayres regarding this we received an email from the Customer Care Manager stating that they would not be able to write to us regarding this as they had received a email from Head Office to look into this.
Today we received a letter from the MD stating "Whilst the windows have been installed using a slightly different detail to some others on the development there is no construction defect." they then go on to say "However, we do agree that the infill pieces at the top corners of the windows do need addressing and we will attend to this by over-cloaking the soffit and fascia boards to the GRP bay roof....."
We found this letter contradictory as surely if there was no construction defect why do the soffits not fit and require triangle infills?? and then in the next sentence they state the infill pieces at the top corners needs addressing?? yes because surely there is a construction defect?? Either it all should be wrong or it all should be right but not one of each??
>:(
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You do have a defect, it is the ongoing cracking internally. Bellway cannot ignore this.
However, I would add that, on the proviso it is done proper workmanlike manner, fitting a new soffit over the old one, in one piece would make it look better.
But I doubt they would take the roof off to do it in one piece and I very much doubt Bellway has anyone skilled enough to cut and fit the new fascia in one piece accurately scribed to the window.
It will be done in several pieces with joiner strips and, in all probability, may end up looking even worse.
I suggest you write back and ask how they propose to fit the soffit in one piece (subject to 8' x 4' sheet sizes) and they supply you with a detailed method statement on how exactly the work will be carried out.
If nothing else it will waste their time!
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Thank you for your reply and advice. :)
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It is always difficult to comment on a picture but the mastic work is enough to show it is a bodge. May I suggest:-
1. Never and I mean Never talk to these people on telephones. Always use a letter or e mail so they have to reply in writing.
2. Have incredible patience as you are talking to people who will wear you down and do nothing. A cancelled meeting means something more important than you came up.
3. Contact a local repair contractor for UPVC windows and get a quote for bringing the window up to standard. Ask for the quote in writing detailing the work to be done. Then submit this to Bellway Homes stating that if the window is not brought up to best industry standards by 1 month from the date of your letter (sent by recorded delivery) you will instruct the quote to go ahead, pay for it and claim it back through the small claims court. You can claim up to £15,000 this way and include all your own costs. Of course this will be done with maximum publicity. This will never reach court.
4. Try to get technical help through a trade association. I believe there is a Plastic Window trade body. Send your pictures of to them and ask them to comment. Do this in the month you have given Bellway and you will be well armed for the Small claims court.
5. I would guess that this window does not fit this hole and somewhere on your estate somebody else window does not fit their hole.
6. When windows are fitted into a hole they must leave a minimum of 6mm gap to take into account expansion of the frame. The max gap will depend on the size of the window. larger frames requiring a wider gap. The joint can be a fillet for small gaps and a butt joint for larger. The joints conform to a British Standard. Yours don't. They are all over the place. Again trade bodies can help.
If you have drawings then check them. Ask the trade body for the minimum gap required for your size window. I bet it is even wrong on the drawing let alone on your windows.
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Thank you for your advice and comments.
I have put a claim in with the NHBC but I'm not going to hold my breath. Is it still possible to go to small claims court even if the NHBC side in favour of the builder but you still have the evidence from the trades body to prove that it's wrong?? It was actually built wrong by 0.5 bricks under size above sill height each side that's caused the soffit on the GRP roof not to cover the gap.
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You can take Bellway to court anytime you want to.
It matters little that the NHBC side with the builder, you can show you have taken every reasonable step to resolve this outside of court and now have no other choice.
Believe me, it wont get that far, no matter what Bellway tell you, they will try and settle before the hearing, even if that is on the court steps.
Any independent surveys or reports, photos of the homes that were built to the drawings will help.
Whilst you are at it, you may as well take a peek to see if your bay roof has any insulation!
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Thank you for your advice and help it has been excellent. :)
The NHBC Resolution meeting date is set for the 7th July. It will probably end with the NHBC saying it does not meet the guidelines but it does meet the standards again or is that me being cynical. ???
Thank you once again. :)
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Had the NHBC meeting yesterday and once again they sided with the builder Bellway Homes.
How they can say "Raising Standards" is beyond me.
Their advice will be as it meets their standards externally, as it is not letting water in, they want the window reveals removed internally to check how they have been constructed due to the large gap back to the blockwork (approx 75mm), to check if they are insulated, and cavity closers were fitted.
When I suggested that the builder had agreed to fit new bay windows originally so why not get them to add the missing bricks externally as it would only need 9 full and 9 half bricks added per side, added to the work that they will propose internally. Their answer was that would cause scarring externally and would look awful.
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To be fair to the NHBC, any cutting out and replacing of brickwork will always show.
The mortar is never exactly the same colour, even if it is the same mix, it will dry differently in different conditions. Add ion the fact that brick specials are required to do it properly (usually on a 12 to 16 week call off) and these may have a colour variation too and it will look like it is a remedial job and that will be forever unless tinting is carried out - yet another patch up job.
The NHBC are not necessarily siding with Bellway although I appreciate it may look like that.
They have committed Bellway to take remedial action to prove the work meets NHBC standards, which I think we both know it is not likely to!
I would suggest you accept the new bay windows offered, the replaced porch upvc soffit and the NHBC internal investigation and any resultant remedial work.
This looks like it is as good as its going to get.
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Thank you for reply and advice.
The NHBC also visited with regards to the soft mortar joints that some have been repaired and obviously do not match that well. However there are other large areas where you can see the mortar eroding away that were not rectified at the time. The NHBC are going to ask the builder to get the mortar tested. My suggestion was that as this remedial work will need tinting why not do the bays as they would also need matching??
I should also add that the builder was going to replace the bay windows originally and refit them to the front of the brickwork but as they would not overlap the cavity closer (if fitted) I do not think that option is now available.
Thank you once again.
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Windows cannot be fitted in front of cavity closers as external brickwork could be exposed inside causing damp.
Weak mortar is a minefield as I advised previously in another post.
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Thank you for your reply.